How to make the best soil substrate? Gurus pls advice!

[lvanilla]

I setting up my 5 footer soon. My base gravel will be lapis gravels.


What set up of base fert is the best for my tank? Any recommendations or comments? I had know people of mixing all types of base fert to have the ideal soil substrate which will last 2-3 yrs.

I have learn that the ecology of a planted aqaurium book by diana walstad seems like quite informative but alas i havent buy yet. Myab someone can shed some light on their secret recipe?

Thanks.

[azurehalcyon]

Just learned this. Experts pls correct me if im wrong. Essentially u need 2 parts in a fert, the nutrients itself, and another material to hold the nutrients in usable form for plants.

1.Nutrients: Best taken as those commercial ferts for aquaria(JBL, Tropica, Dennerle..). If ur gonna use other brands, DO make sure the fert dosent contain urea or too much nitrogen & phosphates. If ur plants are iron greedy u might want to get some laterite(Fe rich clay) as well.

2.Holding Material: any mulch known to have high CEC(cation exchange capacity), meaning it has high nutrient holding capacity. Usu +ve charged so that it holds the -ve cation nutrients colse to it. Plant roots can then retrieve these nutrients by releasing their own cations to exchange for the wanted nutrients. You want to get vermiculite( a clay), or cocopeat(cocnut husk shavings). These expand with h20, thus allowing more space for O2 mvmt--> more areobic substrate. They also have high CEC. Zeolite might be another choice but not too sure bout that.
Cocopeat bought quite cheap from cold storage/ntuc at 5litre packs. Vermiculite can get from plant farms/nurseries.

E.G. mixing base fert with holding material 1:3. Then lay as he bottom layer.

[lvanilla]

[quote:e03b5f94ad="azurehalcyon"]Just learned this. Experts pls correct me if im wrong. Essentially u need 2 parts in a fert, the nutrients itself, and another material to hold the nutrients in usable form for plants.

1.Nutrients: Best taken as those commercial ferts for aquaria(JBL, Tropica, Dennerle..). If ur gonna use other brands, DO make sure the fert dosent contain urea or too much nitrogen & phosphates. If ur plants are iron greedy u might want to get some laterite(Fe rich clay) as well.

2.Holding Material: any mulch known to have high CEC(cation exchange capacity), meaning it has high nutrient holding capacity. Usu +ve charged so that it holds the -ve cation nutrients colse to it. Plant roots can then retrieve these nutrients by releasing their own cations to exchange for the wanted nutrients. You want to get vermiculite( a clay), or cocopeat(cocnut husk shavings). These expand with h20, thus allowing more space for O2 mvmt--> more areobic substrate. They also have high CEC. Zeolite might be another choice but not too sure bout that.
Cocopeat bought quite cheap from cold storage/ntuc at 5litre packs. Vermiculite can get from plant farms/nurseries.

E.G. mixing base fert with holding material 1:3. Then lay as he bottom layer.[/quote:e03b5f94ad]


Dont quite understand the part 2 uses. Why need this? Will u have problem when unrooting plants? will the cocopeat come out in pieces. BTW the cocpeat sold in NTUC is used for wat? For cooking?

Does the vermiculite( a clay) has high iron? IN balls form or bits form? Thus fullfill part 1 requirement?

Thanks.

[juggler]

Cocopeat is a type of potting soil. They are sold in plant nurseries. The ones found in the plant sections of Cold Storage are marketed under a name called "Volcanic soil".

[azurehalcyon]

Dont quite understand the part 2 uses. Why need this? Will u have problem when unrooting plants? will the cocopeat come out in pieces. BTW the cocpeat sold in NTUC is used for wat? For cooking?

Does the vermiculite( a clay) has high iron? IN balls form or bits form? Thus fullfill part 1 requirement?

part 2 acts to hold the nutrients in usable form by the plants. In other words, part 2 preserves nutrients in -ve charge form so that the plants can utilise it. Without part 2, these nutrients usually react with other substances to become UN-usable by plants. ie fert wasted as nutrients all become unusable. it'll take certain reactions to turn the nutrients back to useful n often the conditions will not be there if part 2 not ard. Hope that answers ur qn

cocopeat is a form of peat, just like peat moss. it isnt too powdery n will not cloud that much. just imagine tossing wood shavings into h2o. Cocpeat also expands when wet, so it allows for a more areobic nature. however it IS rather low in Fe, so you'll want to use other additives for this...

vermiculite dosent have much iron, you'll want to look to laterite for that.(looks reddish in colour). Both are clays, but vermiculite just happens to be more devoid of Fe and has a higher pH independent CEC. It comes in packs i believe, of potting clay. just like any other potting soil. so, vermiculite dosent fufill part 1 for Fe. Like i suggested, try getting some laterite to mix with it and use fert sticks to insert near the plants, or just get all rounded base fert to mix it all up. Can't go wrong there!

Hope ive managed to clarify your doubts.

[azurehalcyon]

Note: please dont confuse peat moss n cocopeat!

Hope this allows u to understand more...
Peat refers to organic material of plant origin. Peat moss is made of dead sphagnum moss, and in a very conc form. Thus it is very acidic(since the moss itself is). It is also less stable, (consist of more cellulose than lignin), thus decomposing at a rate that it becomes "exhausted"after a few years.

Cocopeat is made of higly ligified tissue(ligin being a h20 insoluble n hardy degrade-resistant material), hence less reactive. coconut husk is a protective layer for the coconut seed itself, hence it should be unreactive. this means that cocpeat, being derived from the husk, is also wholly unreactive. it would be a waste for the plant to add in trace nutrients into a husk which is going to be "thrown away", so i do expect pure cocopeat to be lacking in that. But it makes up for having high nutrient retaining properties n good expanded (wet) structure for bacteria to grow in n more h20 in the peat.

So cocopeat can be treated like vermiculite, cheaper too, and MUST be mixed with other ferts like JBL or root monster to make up for the nutrients.

Expert pls correct if im wrong at any point

[loupgarou]

vermiculite will float and mess your entire tank up.
--
really, if you want a good substrate with CEC etc, just go for fluorite, or ada soil under flourite, or peat/mulm under fluorite.

[mordrake]

very informative thread...

what about just using jbl as base fert topped by lapis gravel? not power enough to last?
intended tank size 5x2x2 or 6x2x2 setup for discus so will be mostly ferns, crypts and such (a good model i'll follow would be vinz aro tank)

[lvanilla]

Bro azurehalcyon, thanks for yr detail explaination. My previous setups always uses JBL fert or sera fert only. So I will be trying yr suggested ingredient.

So my plan for my 5 footer will be:

First layer(bottom layer)1.5inch - ??XCocopeat + 2XJBL fert + lapis gravel
2nd layer 0.5 inch - Lapis gravel + 1.5X denelle Deponit-mix 120
3rd layer (top layer) 1 inch - Lapis gravel


Correct me if I m wrong. Thanks

[lvanilla]

[quote:270f8d062d="loupgarou"]vermiculite will float and mess your entire tank up.
--
really, if you want a good substrate with CEC etc, just go for fluorite, or ada soil under flourite, or peat/mulm under fluorite.[/quote:270f8d062d]

Hi chris, I am using my old gravel frm my previos setup to save cost. May throw in a pack of red flourite for their iron content. izzit usesful like that? Actually I wanted to throw some ADA in the soil to lower the PH, since u told me, it got no effect, then I gave up the idea.

Cheers

[lvanilla]

BTW, any particlar brand to tale note when buying the cocopeat or "Volcanic soil"? How much do u need for 5 footer by 2 ft ? How big per pack and how much? Nurseries or Cold Storage cheaper?

Thanks!

[mordrake]

i got mine at cold storage for 2 bucks a bag. one bag enough for 2ft tank with abit of excess.
since you're going to mix it, i think max 3 bags.

[azurehalcyon]

what about just using jbl as base fert topped by lapis gravel? not power enough to last?

Not used JBL yet, so i don't know if jbl has CEC properties. Probably yes, but im gonna use cocopeat to "maximise" my base fert. lapis is like quartz n has virtually no CEC, so id suggest getting someother substance like cocopeat!

Bro azurehalcyon, thanks for yr detail explaination. My previous setups always uses JBL fert or sera fert only. So I will be trying yr suggested ingredient.

So my plan for my 5 footer will be:

First layer(bottom layer)1.5inch - ??XCocopeat + 2XJBL fert + lapis gravel
2nd layer 0.5 inch - Lapis gravel + 1.5X Deponit-mix 80
3rd layer (top layer) 1 inch - Lapis gravel

Sounds okay, but y add in lapis gravel? for 1st layer? its unreactive, n serves no purpose these, IMHO. Gravel layer acts a sectioning btwn h20 cloumn n fert, and provides good anchorage n breathing space for plants.
Suggest cocopeat : fert in 3:1?

What's deponit? im sorry but not really conversant with ferts. Is it some hi iron stuff?

[PeterGwee]

lvanilla wrote

So my plan for my 5 footer will be:

First layer(bottom layer)1.5inch - ??XCocopeat + 2XJBL fert + lapis gravel
2nd layer 0.5 inch - Lapis gravel + 1.5X Deponit-mix 80
3rd layer (top layer) 1 inch - Lapis gravel

Please...you do not need a mixture of all the stuff to make plants grow well. All plants need the same nutrients maybe except that it varies in quantity of each for different species. With all that mixture, does that mean the nutrients are available? You are better off getting reputable iron rich substrates like flourite from seachem, jbl or sera (I'm not with ADA due to issues with CO2 measurements...) coupled with addition of mulm(dirt from established tanks) at the very bottom of the tank and some organic material like peat above the mulm.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[azurehalcyon]

Please...you do not need a mixture of all the stuff to make plants grow well. All plants need the same nutrients maybe except that it varies in quantity of each for different species. With all that mixture, does that mean the nutrients are available? You are better off getting reputable iron rich substrates like flourite from seachem, jbl or sera (I'm not with ADA due to issues with CO2 measurements...) coupled with addition of mulm(dirt from established tanks) at the very bottom of the tank and some organic material like peat above the mulm.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Yup! im thinking of using even potting soil for lotus plants, sold at farmart..
PeterGwee, can share what's ur substrate composition? Thing is, ferts like jbl, seachem n sera, are they "complete ferts", or do u sus have to mix it up? im planning to mix my ferts with cocopeat, coz being the chaepo i am, i want to maximise the fert. only if i see plants declining will i start using sticks...

[PeterGwee]

PeterGwee, can share what's ur substrate composition?

JBL AquaBasis top off with lapis gravel...cheap and easy.

Thing is, ferts like jbl, seachem n sera, are they "complete ferts", or do u sus have to mix it up?

Most commercial substrate do not contain any N or P so they are not complete at all. I personally don't care for mixing it up in the substrate as you never know whether you have enough or not and resetting the nutrients means replacing the entire substrate. (I surely don't want to do that...its a PITA.) I rather do it in the water column where I can test if I want to or not to by doing large water resets to remove any possible buildup due to excess.

only if i see plants declining will i start using sticks...

What kind of sticks are you using? I do not have any idea of what root monsters contain but if the macros are lacking in the sticks, you are not going to see any big improvement in terms of plant growth. Jobes are bad imo if you lack experience and uproot plants often. But if you don't shift the plants around or uproot them, you can consider them but I won't recommend it due to the NH4 which is going to cause major algae problems if leeched to the water column.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[lvanilla]

Sounds okay, but y add in lapis gravel? for 1st layer? its unreactive, n serves no purpose these, IMHO. Gravel layer acts a sectioning btwn h20 cloumn n fert, and provides good anchorage n breathing space for plants.
Suggest cocopeat : fert in 3:1?

What's deponit? im sorry but not really conversant with ferts. Is it some hi iron stuff?[/quote]

A bit mixture of gravels will spread out the mass of fertilizer. As plants roots grow deep and u cant have a whole chuck of fert and cocopeat rite, too much fert concentration rite? Pls enlighten me.

[lvanilla]

May I know who else use cocopeat for his setup?

[bclee]

You may want to add some source of Fe like laterite or other clay-base materials. I think peat is not a good source of Fe.

BC

[azurehalcyon]

JBL AquaBasis top off with lapis gravel...cheap and easy.

Would have bought JBL too, if not for being unable to find it in over SIX shops, impulsion made me buy some tw brand fert. Oh well.
Whatever is lacking in the gravel in due time, ill be using the tetra crypto n this made in tw stick fert(recommended by a freind who sez its good). So, no worries. I won't be putting any stick ferts 1st, only when the tank matures will i put it. For now rely on the substrate.

bit mixture of gravels will spread out the mass of fertilizer. As plants roots grow deep and u cant have a whole chuck of fert and cocopeat rite, too much fert concentration rite? Pls enlighten me.

Mixing the cocopeat with fert is okay, IMO. Cocopeat's special in that it can act like expanding clay---> it expands wen absorbing h20. Thus it allows more"breathing space. cocopeat mostly lignin so wont rot so easily. It's just a medium (see my above explanantion). Thus no need to worry bout roots not having space or suffocating. Its just like adding some clay/soil to fert.
Hey u could also try out zeolite, check out explanation as kindly given by Dr Mallick. Its under the "add'l qn on zeolite" thread.