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Thread: LFS PriceList in AQ

  1. #1

    LFS PriceList in AQ

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    Just a dumb idea: Wouldn't it be good if there is a pricelist section in AQ forum?

    Just like hardwarezone.com, many people uses that as a reference for purchases. Imagine Sim Lim with all the stores in 1 single location and yet they have this good reference site. While the LFS are so far apart, at times it is hard to search around for good products and prices.

    I guess contributions of price list will have to be from all members. I believe there are some that frequent LFS at least once a week.

    Again, like I say: my dumb idea... wahpiang

  2. #2
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    Re: LFS PriceList in AQ

    It's not a dumb idea, but rather misguided. I have always felt that choosing LFS on the SOLE basis of price is a short-sighted attitude. First, prices can change, and LFS reserve the right to offer better deals to certain regulars (while charging normal rates to casual buyers). What one member is charged may not be what the LFS would like to charge everyone.

    I also do not see products such as fish and plants (equipment perhaps is different) as undifferentiated items akin to cameras and hardware from Sim Lim. Some LFS take the trouble to quarantine their fish/plants before putting them up for sale - the cost for such better quality stock will of course be somewhat higher. Other LFS source for fishes/plants that are relatively rare, and this means that the overall cost of livestock in the shop would tend to be higher than your average wet market or pao kah liao type LFS.

    There are also LFS who bother to set up good show tanks and who can provide trustworthy advice about the hobby. There are also other outfits which are really like aquatic warehouses, pushing volume sales without the time or real expertise to dish out advice other than "yah, this product sure can do it one!"

    I personally think spending time and effort looking for the absolute lowest price of a product is worth it. What if the cheapest offering may be in a shop at the other end of Singapore? Are you going to spend half a day plus transport to go there?

  3. #3
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    Wah Piang eh, (pun intended)

    If that's the case, you will end up with most people
    buying from shops which sells very little fish and mainly
    equipment at low prices, supermarket style, or worse,
    with a loudspeaker denouncing and condemning their
    neighbours.

    LFS'es who bother to sell fishes and takes risk to bring
    in rarer varieties will then have to
    1) Close shop
    2) Sell the fishes at much higher prices
    3) Join in the bandwagon of selling hardware at low prices.
    Devoting more space to hardware and less to perishable
    livestocks which sometimes loses money big time.

    I feel that it cannot be good for the hobby in general.
    Always suppport good LFS'es who practise good animal
    husbandry. Personally, I will never buy a fish that is displayed
    in a plastic bag (Kopi-style) or even buy anything from such
    shops. I will also never buy any hardware from a shop that
    sells more hardware than livestocks as I feel these do not
    contribute to the hobby at all.

    So good LFS'es that charges a reasonable price deserve your
    support even if its not the lowest priced.

    Just my thoughts and not forcing it on anyone.

    Cheers
    Chong

  4. #4
    Hi altum, I like your reply... but I just can't help feeling that you are a shopowner

    I do read all your concerns and have thought of all these. Its just like the fear of the neighbourhood when giant marts conquer any cities. We fear the lost of friendly stores and personalised service.

    However, even with the pricelist at hardwarezone.com, many people have their preferred stores and they still frequent them due to good service. And that is the strength of this forum where frank comments are made about good and not so good storeowners. Eg. NA Chan is a very nice guy... C328 has cheap prices but lack that personal touch...etc.. I personally stayed in the west, and my favourite stores are C328 and Horizon in Henderson. I will still frequent them regardless of prices.

    I am not suggesting something from Mars or Venus.. Within this tiny community, there are always saying like "cardinal fish" can get 50 for how much in Gan, lightings can get ... from .... I don't think these are all unheard of... I am just suggesting to put it into a bulletin for sharing.

    Fishes are unique as compared to standard branding products like memory chips, CPU etc... Like mentioned, some provide quarantine service before selling.. But, where can such information be found? Pricelist is just general guides like for equipment, comman fishes like cardinals etc... it need not be for everything.

    Look into a broader aspect of things... There are so many friendly fish stores closed down because they couldn't compete... With the pricelist, the store owners knows the competition better, and with the forum, they know they have to provide better services. This could be the place where a member marks something special about the store and the store get noticed by readers. There are stores where not many people knows they exists. This is the place for them to stand out in one way or another.

    Again, just personal suggestion and opinion. I have many more thoughts into this, but too much to share over here. This topic is rather controversial. I hear 2 immediate negative view of it. I will leave it as it is. If I have the capability, I would like to provide this pricelist service myself.

    Like I always mentioned to my friend, I am new to this community, but I love this community. People are just so nice and helpful in this community. Any suggestions made have no ill intends but with helpful thoughts.

    Hope to know you all in person.

  5. #5
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    Hi Wah Piang,

    Hope you do not think everybody here is unfriendly because
    of my post. After reading it again, it does sound like I am
    shooting down your ideas, actually its just my feeling about
    the trade in general, pls do not take it personally.

    About the shop owner part, I would not have replied if I were
    currently in the trade as it would not be credible then.

    Its not so much as a mega store displacing small shops, its
    more like shops that have no interest in promoting the hobby
    directly by bringing in quality fishes that irks me. A mega store
    that provides wide selection of quality livestocks should always
    enjoy our support and will put pressure on the smaller ones
    to do likewise. A store that sells mainly equipment and accessories
    does nothing for a hobbyist who wants to buy fish, which is what
    fishkeeping is all about.

    Having said that, that's the trend that is happening now as
    that's where the money is. Economics and consumer
    spending trends cannot be ignored, I may do likewise as that
    is what the market dictates.

    So I hope I do not come across in my previous post as if
    I am on a higher moral ground.

    Sometimes written stuff do come across as more negative
    than it really is.

    Cheers
    Chong

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    Re:

    First a disclaimer: budak has no commercial/financial interest whatsoever in any LFS or commercial aquaria enterprise.

    Actually it could still be said that the fear of megawarehouses (hyper-'Petmarts' driving out more specialised and personalised stores could be overstated. Even in books, one sees specialised stores appearing (e.g. Select Books which focuses on academic and Asian studies literature) to fill in gaps which Times/MPH do not meet. With competition (e.g. Kino versus Borders), megastores are also forced to expand their offerings and offer better services (greater variety and good ordering facilities) to win over customers, especially when they find that there are suckers like budak who happily pay $100 for a new Baensch Encyclopedia.

    You don't seem like one who is obsessed with sheer low prices. However, my response (and altum's likely) stems from the apparent obsession with getting the "best lorbangs" for every item or livestock, with a kind of 'race' to the bottom towards the absolute cheapest outlet. I know a fair number of hobbyists are also students - but still I find that in Singapore, the sheer low prices of aquaria equipment and livestock seems to promote a culture where the sheer monetary ability to purchase a species outweighs the individual's true understanding or capacity to care for it. Livestock isn't hardware.... and I feel that the cost of failure here (i.e. death of livestock) is too cheap by far. Money can buy the nicest fish/plants, but not the ability to be a good aquarist. My own view and observation is that LFS with generally lower prices are those least inclined to provide credible advice on the care of livestock.

    [Another thing against price-listing is that prices of supply-determined livestock can change, and LFS may choose to provide good discounts for regulars. Published prices (which rely solely on the reports of hobbyists) may not apply all the time or to everyone alike. A LFS has full rights to determine its pricing – I don't think it's right for hobbyists to hold a LFS hostage to prices that are quoted on a forum (which the LFS did not explicitly endorse). There are of course some standard offers (e.g. Gan's cardinals), but here I think off-hand recommendations are good enough.

    I think without a price list, forums already provide ample information about the merits (be it price or service quality) of LFS. LFS who thrive on sheer price competition won't care much about feedback here – theirs is a volume business catering to casual buyers as well as hobbyists who already know what they want without needing further advice. One can quantify price, but how does one rate quality of service? Chan of Nature enjoys a good reputation here, but at times, some folks comment that he is somewhat 'aloof'. Should such views be put into a LFS list? Those of use who know the scene can pick out the quality LFS – but I think newbies who seem amost always price-obsessed are unlikely to appreciate entries such as "LFS XXX is not as cheap as some others, but the owner is very friendly and knowledgeable". What's to stop a newbie to go to LFS XXX, talk to the owner about this and that product or species, and end up going to the cheapest LFS instead to buy the item? I am not saying that's wrong, but it's something I don't wish to see a forum facilitating.

  7. #7
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    I am not a LFS shop owner and neither am I related to one.

    My greatest concern in this hobby (in which I have so much passion) is the disappearance of quality LFS that can provide Quality Fish + Equipment.
    I wrote in my past posting (with subject title about Rainbow) that a popular LFS sold me wild fishes that died on me the same night. Granted, I could be the absolute fool that caused the fishes to die. But I can see a co-relation between how the fish was treated (in the shop) and why they die.

    That LFS is definitely one of the 'cheapest' around when comes to fish. But you can forget about getting any form of product-knowledge from the owner.
    Is that what we really want?

    I was told that already major fish handlers (import and exporter) choose to give Singapore a miss even though most fishes in the trade pass by Singapore. I attribute the cause to the so-called 'hobbists' whom do not care to know more about what they are getting into but only interested to buy the fish/product that are the cheapest, regardless of quality.

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    Adding to that, there also seems to be the behaviour which is plain acquisitive.... with people trying to "collect" every available species of shrimp, or apisto, or betta or tonina or moss, or whatever group that had captured their fancy at the moment. I have strong doubts as to whether many of these folks really understand their charges - when they can't even tell between a species and variety, and the very first question asked of a livestock is "where to buy and where cheapest?", I can't help but come to this conclusion.

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    On technical ground, the price list has to cover as many shops and as many product as possible, to be useful at all. This is too much to handle for the admin team, not to mention that there will be frequent updates and changes. Nobody is paid a cent to come up with all these features that you see now. So, where can we find the many pairs of eyes and hands to keep the list fresh?

    On political ground, we may choose only to list prices of selected outlets. But this is going to make us enemies of the unlisted ones, which is pretty unncessary.

    On top of these, there isn't price control among the outlets like what you can see in Sim Lim Square. It wouldnt be nice to start a price war. We will probably end up with more irresponsible fish shop owners who don't care about the health and quality of fishes.

    I was told that already major fish handlers (import and exporter) choose to give Singapore a miss even though most fishes in the trade pass by Singapore. I attribute the cause to the so-called 'hobbists' whom do not care to know more about what they are getting into but only interested to buy the fish/product that are the cheapest, regardless of quality.
    This is so, because most expensive and exotic fishes has very niche market here in market. And the supplier can only sell them at a fraction of the price if sold in countries like japan and hong kong. If the "only-buy-cheapest-fish" habit remains, we are just going to see neon tetras and harlequins in our LFS.
    人的一生﹐ 全靠奮斗﹐ 唯有奮斗﹐ 才能成功

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    Re:

    [quote:cf55dd0e0d="budak"]
    Livestock isn't hardware.... and I feel that the cost of failure here (i.e. death of livestock) is too cheap by far. Money can buy the nicest fish/plants, but not the ability to be a good aquarist. My own view and observation is that LFS with generally lower prices are those least inclined to provide credible advice on the care of livestock.

    Those of use who know the scene can pick out the quality LFS – but I think newbies who seem amost always price-obsessed are unlikely to appreciate entries such as "LFS XXX is not as cheap as some others, but the owner is very friendly and knowledgeable". What's to stop a newbie to go to LFS XXX, talk to the owner about this and that product or species, and end up going to the cheapest LFS instead to buy the item? I am not saying that's wrong, but it's something I don't wish to see a forum facilitating.[/quote:cf55dd0e0d]

    Well, its an eye catching topic (not just for a newbie) in chit-chat section.

    Having killed many 'cheap-beautiful' fishes and plants since I was first given a fish bowl by my dad, I'm still a newbie in fish keeping.

    I have benefited greatly from the efforts of this great idea from a 'few-good-men', that a good forum has been set up to share the experience and promote the correct attitude in appreciating nature & life. I personally feel that it is not just a 'newbie' who is price conscious when they first started in the hobby. End of the day, its weighs down to how much respect a person has for 'live' and respect for the pets they keep, not the price. It is true that some lfs owners do charge a higher price to a 'newbie' when he/she appeared very excited to 'jump' start into the hobby now and then (like I did paid twice the price higher for an OHF).

    Sadly, its the environment that we are brought up in that mould us to be more price-conscious and trend-conscious, even when it comes to keeping a pet. Gladly, I see a change and difference here in this forum.
    ~Chyrl~

    向来如此便是对吗?
    Live each moment like its the last

  11. #11
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    I saw this week in Paris a very well-stocked pet shop (about 4 times the size of the Paya Lebar Aquamart) with a large aquaria corner. The prices of equipment (test kits, filters) seem to be equivalent to Singapore (mostly European brands like Eheim, Dupla, JBL etc), but the price of livestock is really unthinkable for many Singaporeans. But - the shop is kept immaculate, with plenty of space, reference material, good books, clear labels and casualty-free tanks with healthy fish in much better health and size than many local outfits.

    Tropica plants are stocked there, with prices starting from 5 euros for a small bunch of Cabomba or Elodea.... the fish range is good too, with sections dedicated to Malawi cichlids, Tanganyikan cichlids (no mixing too!), plenty of nice plecos and corydoras, and even tanks of robust Sundadanio axelrodi and Boraras brigittae! (at something like 6 euros per piece)

    Overhead costs are definitely higher in places like Europe and Japan, but clearly, the general prices (and value) of undertaking the hobby (and this applies to areas like pet dogs and cats where animal welfare rules are strictly enforced) is a reason why hobbyists there take to the hobby with serious intent (not purely as a diversion to be discarded when the novelty wears off, problems emerge or the kok-tau fish outgrows its tank) and earnest desire to learn about the needs of their charges.

    Oh, and I saw this lovely concept in the shop which would be nice to emulate - a small round tank with no substrate. The bottom is covered instead with those round algae balls and Elodea or hornwort is grown unattached.... the effect is very much like looking into a natural pond through a lens, with small fishes peeking through the intermeshed stems. The water is very cool (20C?) and just one light bulb is used (no filters, CO2 etc). Here, it would probably work best in an Airconditioned room.

  12. #12
    i agreed that a pricelist will be unnecessary.. as we are dealing with life stock and not mechanical parts.. but compareing prices will induce unhealthy competition and make the rates go down .. and the well fare of the lifestock will be affected..
    Please don't buy dogs. Go adopt one !

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    I rather not have a price list ..
    .coz shops are not close to each other unlike Sim Lim( all the shop fightning for survival) ....
    and some LFS will try not to lower the price... coz they know everyplace is selling the same price.
    I Doesnt haVe GReen HAIr NoR orANGE bodY. DOnT chOP mE likE A cARroT !!

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    Err.. just to add my views. In actual fact, most of the fish that we get here are really cheap. Try buying the same fish in Japan or the US and you'll end up paying 3 to 4 times more than you would here.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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