furry plant grower
Have a newly reset tank (old gravel) which I drained, added some basefert and re-added the gravel which was made up of mixed mini pebbles and coral chips for african cichlids.
Plants grown are Anubias gigantea, A. Barteri nana, Microsorum pteropus and something that looks like Cryptocoryne alba. All these were tied onto driftwood and were grown emmersed when I bought them.
FL Light of unknown temperature rating, called daylight, 1 WPG, 10 hours daily
Tank Volume is 15 gal
OHF filter
No CO2.
Plants were introduced 5 days ago, plus a dose of 5ml seachem excel
2 days later, 1 crypt leaf turned black, trim off
2 days later, old leaves on the gigantea turning yellow with translucent spots, tips of java fern turning translucent.
1 day later, Yellowed Anubias gigantea leaves melting. Addition of 5ppm NO3 from KNO3 plus 2ml LGA didn't help, even more leaves of the A. gigantea turning yellow. Strangely, the nana and crypt looked OK.
Does the downdraft of the filter cause such problems?
Is this normal for these "hardy" plants to survive in such an environment? If not, what should I do? I'm setting this up for a relative who does not want to dose anything except fish feeding and water changes.
Warm regards,
Lawrence Lee
brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:8
I am not sure if A.gigantea needs higher lighting. The other Aponogetons species seem to favour "average-high" lighting when I checked in Tropica. Can't help you on this one.
OHF will cause CO2 dissipation. Why not use a small internal filter like Eden series?
So far I started my low-tech tanks with old tank water. Not sure if that is a big factor.
koah fong
Juggler's tanks
furry plant grower
[quote:da56f670="juggler"] I am not sure if A.gigantea needs higher lighting. The other Aponogetons species seem to favour "average-high" lighting when I checked in Tropica. Can't help you on this one.[/quote:da
Its Anubias gigantea, not Aponogeton. The tropica website lists this as 101c, A. barteri var angustifolia. However, the height listed is different from what is residing in the tank. Listed height is 10-15 cm, Residing in the tank are almost 30 cm tall leaves. Here's a site that has a picture of it http://www.aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/cart/LL004.html.
Just did a search on google with the words Anubias gigantea and it seems that this leaf deficiency is endemic to this plant.
[quote:da
I'm setting this tank up for a relative, and he had already got the filters etc. I cannot make it too difficult nor different from what he is accustomed to, ie, a Luohan tank, as I plan to ease him into planted aquaria, as his current opinion on planted tanks are high maintenance, high cost, high dependence on equipment.
Warm regards,
Lawrence Lee
brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:8
I'm pretty sure Microsorum and Anubias can survive in a simple setup but water column fertilization is still something you cannot walk away from. Growth rate of Anubias may be slow but I've ever had an Anubias-dorminant tank soaking up NO3 at a rate of 10-15ppm/week.
You can try this:
- Reduce photoperiod to 6-7hrs per day
- Add (approx) 10ppm of K, 5ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4 and some traces once a week.
- Change 30-50% water every 2 or 3 weeks.
- Get some algae eaters (e.g. otos, shrimps).
- Ensure that the tank does not get any natural lighting.
Btw, what you got is probably Anubias afzelii or A. barteri augustifolia (looks like A. afzelii but smaller). A. gigantea is a lot larger - petiole (leaf stalk) is usually 1-2ft long while mature leaves are ~6inches wide. That's why you usually find this at ponds instead of aquariums.
Also, if you bought your 'Cryptocoryne alba' tied to a piece of wood and the plant is doing fine now without being rooted, the plant is probably not a Cryptocoryne to begin with.
ThEoDoRe
Theodore, this is a non-CO2 tank...Do not mix the CO2 enriched tank methods with those of non-CO2. Non-CO2 tanks are limited tanks meaning limiting of light and CO2 which is the main driving force of nutrient uptake and growth. When growth slows down considerably, the ammonia/nitrate produced by fish food/critters is able to keep up with the plant demands/uptake rate without killing or stunting the plants. Lifting the limitation of both light/CO2 or either of it will cause an increase in uptake and a potential for algae as the plant demand can no longer be met from fish food/waste. Changing water lifts the CO2 limitation due to higher levels of CO2 in the tap water and doing that often might cause issues with algae. So...keep the main driving force in control (CO2 and light) and you should not have much issues except for very slow growth.
You might need to add some baking soda and seachem equilibrium whenever you do a large water change (every 3-6 months or more / whenever you uproot or prune the tank.).
Regards
Peter Gwee
Peter,
I have never believed in any 1-size-fits-all approach, may it be for high-light/CO2-enriched or low maintence tanks.
Some tanks may have lower nutrient uptake rates due to various limitations (no CO2, low light levels etc) but this is just a general statement at best. Try putting a few stalks of Ceraphyllum (hornwort) in any tank and you will find NO3 bottoming out in a couple of days. Anubias, I've found, is also a heavy feeder - slower growth rate does not mean its nutrient uptake rate is slower.
A quick take on my proposals:
- Reduce photoperiod to 6-7hrs per day
His tank now has a photoperiod of 10hrs. This is too much since he does not have any form of CO2 injection.
- Add (approx) 10ppm of K, 5ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4 and some traces once a week.
Water column fertilization should be done for any kind of planted tank. It is possible to get away with most of it (NO3, PO4, Fe, Ca and Mg) but the substrate will need to be tweaked. Even so, I'll still add traces and K once a while, esp. if one is keeping mosses or any non-rooted flora.
- Change 30-50% water every 2 or 3 weeks.
I don't suppose he will do any kind of testing so the best way to ensure that nutrient levels don't skyrocket is to do water changes.
- Get some algae eaters (e.g. otos, shrimps).
I don't think I need to explain this.
- Ensure that the tank does not get any natural lighting
I only have a problem with this with it comes to low maintence tanks. Unless one enjoys scrapping brown algae off the tank walls every 2 weeks, natural lighting should be avoided altogether.
My methods may be unorthodox and perhaps it won't work as well as what Lawrence would like it to but some of your points puzzles me too.
1. Baking soda? This tank is not CO2-enriched and KH is not relevant here.
2. Equilibrium? This tank already has coral chips in the substrate. Ca, Mg and CO3 is available, though in lesser amounts due to the higher pH (7-7.5). Perhaps the Equilibrium here is intended more for K. Costly option compared to K2SO4 or KNO3.
3. Changing water lifts CO2 limitation? CO2 dissipates way too easily. Water changes adds no more CO2 than surface agitation from the OHF IMO.
ThEoDoRe
[quote:6235ec7983="GaspingGurami"]Have a newly reset tank (old gravel) which I drained, added some basefert and re-added the gravel which was made up of mixed mini pebbles and coral chips for african cichlids.
Plants grown are Anubias gigantea, A. Barteri nana, Microsorum pteropus and something that looks like Cryptocoryne alba. All these were tied onto driftwood and were grown emmersed when I bought them.
FL Light of unknown temperature rating, called daylight, 1 WPG, 10 hours daily
Tank Volume is 15 gal
OHF filter
No CO2.
Plants were introduced 5 days ago, plus a dose of 5ml seachem excel
2 days later, 1 crypt leaf turned black, trim off
2 days later, old leaves on the gigantea turning yellow with translucent spots, tips of java fern turning translucent.
1 day later, Yellowed Anubias gigantea leaves melting. Addition of 5ppm NO3 from KNO3 plus 2ml LGA didn't help, even more leaves of the A. gigantea turning yellow. Strangely, the nana and crypt looked OK.
Does the downdraft of the filter cause such problems?
Is this normal for these "hardy" plants to survive in such an environment? If not, what should I do? I'm setting this up for a relative who does not want to dose anything except fish feeding and water changes.[/quote:6235ec7983]
I think you do not have enough light. 15W for 15gal is too little, especially if the tank temperature is going to be on the high side in Singapore. 30W should be just nice.
For a really low maintenance tank, you can do away with the Flourish Excel and fertilisation. Water change is also optional. Most of the nutrients should come from the feeding of fishes.
BC
[quote:21a3d0ef86="theodore"]Try putting a few stalks of Ceraphyllum (hornwort) in any tank and you will find NO3 bottoming out in a couple of days.[/quote:21a3d0ef86]
Hornwort is a bicarbonate user if my memory serves me correctly. Its slowing down has got something to do with the KH more than the NO3 in my opinion and experience. What kind of NO3 kit are you using to measure the NO3?
[quote:21a3d0ef86="theodore"]1. Baking soda? This tank is not CO2-enriched and KH is not relevant here.[/quote:21a3d0ef86]
If you add plants that uses bicarbonate as a form of CO2, you will have a very unstable environment. When the bicarbonate bottoms out (likely in our low KH taps) the pH will crash.
[quote:21a3d0ef86="theodore"]2. Equilibrium? This tank already has coral chips in the substrate. Ca, Mg and CO3 is available, though in lesser amounts due to the higher pH (7-7.5). Perhaps the Equilibrium here is intended more for K. Costly option compared to K2SO4 or KNO3.[/quote:21a3d0ef86]
Yes, K. But if you are cheap on things and do not mind dosing various form of chemicals, then it is fine.
[quote:21a3d0ef86="theodore"]3. Changing water lifts CO2 limitation? CO2 dissipates way too easily. Water changes adds no more CO2 than surface agitation from the OHF IMO.[/quote:21a3d0ef86]
It depends on the sources...your mmv. Tap water's temperature is also cooler than those in the tank for most of the time unless you use a chiller. Colder water holds more gases. Diana Walstad's theory seems to bank on folks not to use wet/drys and having no surface agitation as it adds CO2 which should be limited in this case. Tom's approach is pretty similar except that he uses HOB filters which does not cause alot of splashing but has slight surface movement for the critters and bacteria.
Regards
Peter Gwee
[quote:390372ce47="PeterGwee"][quote:390372ce47="theodore"]1. Baking soda? This tank is not CO2-enriched and KH is not relevant here.[/quote:390372ce47]
If you add plants that uses bicarbonate as a form of CO2, you will have a very unstable environment. When the bicarbonate bottoms out (likely in our low KH taps) the pH will crash.
[/quote:390372ce47]
It defies logic to suggest that pH will crash in a non-CO2 enriched tank when KH bottoms out. The only exception is perhaps for a tank using ADA aquasoil. Even so, it is perfectly fine for a mature tank (using ADA aquasoil) to go without any KH additives and I have a cherry shrimp tank to prove for that.
[quote:390372ce47="PeterGwee"][quote:390372ce47="theodore"]2. Equilibrium? This tank already has coral chips in the substrate. Ca, Mg and CO3 is available, though in lesser amounts due to the higher pH (7-7.5). Perhaps the Equilibrium here is intended more for K. Costly option compared to K2SO4 or KNO3.[/quote:390372ce47]
Yes, K. But if you are cheap on things and do not mind dosing various form of chemicals, then it is fine.[/quote:390372ce47]
FYI, K from Seachem Equilibrium is derived from K2SO4 which, unfortunately, is one of the chemicals you deem cheap.
[quote:390372ce47="PeterGwee"][quote:390372ce47="theodore"]3. Changing water lifts CO2 limitation? CO2 dissipates way too easily. Water changes adds no more CO2 than surface agitation from the OHF IMO.[/quote:390372ce47]
It depends on the sources...your mmv. Tap water's temperature is also cooler than those in the tank for most of the time unless you use a chiller. Colder water holds more gases. Diana Walstad's theory seems to bank on folks not to use wet/drys and having no surface agitation as it adds CO2 which should be limited in this case. Tom's approach is pretty similar except that he uses HOB filters which does not cause alot of splashing but has slight surface movement for the critters and bacteria.
[/quote:390372ce47]
Cooler water do hold more gases and it is also true that tap water is usually cooler than what we have in our tank. However, for CO2, surface agitation as we are change water is likely to cause the dissolved CO2 level to reach equilibrium with the surrounding air at a faster rate, esp. using for folks using pails on smaller tanks.
ThEoDoRe
All plants will use HCO3, directly or indirectly. As plants uses the CO2 in the water, HCO3- will be depleted too.
CO2 + H2O <---> HCO3- + H+
If CO2 on the LHS is depleted, the reaction shifts to the left. The HCO3- is converted into CO2. As the plants uses more and more HCO3- (indirectly), KH will drop. A pH crash may happen over time if KH becomes zero.
I usually recommend raising KH of a non-CO2 enriched tank. Not just to prevent pH crash, but as a C source for the plant.
BC
BC,
Would you recommend raising KH for tanks with coral chips in the substrate?
ThEoDoRe
furry plant grower
[quote:35dc764ca1="PeterGwee"]You might need to add some baking soda and seachem equilibrium whenever you do a large water change (every 3-6 months or more / whenever you uproot or prune the tank.).[/quote:35dc764ca1]
The tank is currently kH:4 degrees, GH: 7 degrees without any additional dosing. pH holds stable at 7.7, Water temp: 30 degrees during photo period.
[quote:35dc764ca1="bclee"]I think you do not have enough light. 15W for 15gal is too little, especially if the tank temperature is going to be on the high side in Singapore. 30W should be just nice. [/quote:35dc764ca1]
I'm a bit confused here. I also thought that light is insufficient. However, the leaves that are furthest from the light or in the shade of the OHF is not yellowed. Furthermore, leaves right at the surface, beneath the light is also not yellowed. Only leaves in mid-depth, but catching the light turn yellow and then melt away.
Then there is this interesting leaf that is yellowed, and as I part the leaf above so that I can cut away this yellow leaf, I found that the shadow area that the leaf above cast on this yellowed leaf is still fresh and green. The yellow just stopped abruptly where the shadow began. If light is insufficient, wouldn't the whole leaf have turned yellow, instead of the part that is exposed to light? Strangely, the leaf above that is exposed to light is not affected.
I also had been thinking along the lines of nutrient deficiency, and had put into the water column 5ppm NO3, 20ppm K, 0.14ppm Fe with traces, 10ppm Mg and Seachem excel irregularly, hoping to correct this problem first. However, it has not helped, and other leaves are falling victim too. It leads me ask does the downdraft current from an OHF cause this? It appears that those leaves that are yellowing or turning transparent are all near or in the current of the oHF.
My immediate plan is to get the plants to survive first. When the plants are no longer dying, I'll then start to slowly reduce the fertilising and the light hours till it is only necessary to do top-ups and fish feeding.
Warm regards,
Lawrence Lee
brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:8
Different plants have different light requirements.
With such low lights, I really doubt it is due to nutrients defficiency. Anyway, you can try out adding the nutrients. Do feedback on the progress.
BC
furry plant grower
It's been half a month since my last posting and here is an update. Adding ferts didn't slow down the yellowing. Even dosing Excel didn't help. Then I cut down the photoperiod from 10 hours to 7 hours, and the yellowing slowed down.
I stoppd ferts, fed livestock copiously, added Otos, more gouramies and shrimps and top up water weekly. Microsorum leaves have stabilised, no more blackening but no new growth. Anubias is putting out new leaves, although some leaves at the surface directly under the lamp is still yellowing, but very slowly.
[quote:c8c8f6f067="theodore"]Also, if you bought your 'Cryptocoryne alba' tied to a piece of wood and the plant is doing fine now without being rooted, the plant is probably not a Cryptocoryne to begin with[/quote:c8c8f6f067]
Also found out that this plant is indeed not a crypt but a poisonous terrestrial called Spathiphyllum wallisii. http://home10.inet.tele.dk/sveri/plant-e/frame-1.html Before I came to know that it is poisonous, I trimmed some leaves, and strangely, some fishes started to gasp at the surface although ammonia and nitrite is 0ppm. It also couldn't be lack of O2 as only the fishes that dwell at the cut plant was affected (an observation on hindsight). Within 6 hours, these fishes are dead.
This plant is also putting out new leaves, but it's sad that such plants are being sold as aquarium plants.
Warm regards,
Lawrence Lee
brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:8
Nutrients should not be the problem as suspected...
Are those yellow leaves new or old leaves?
BC
furry plant grower
[quote:80ae2ad6d8="bclee"]Are those yellow leaves new or old leaves?[/quote:80ae2ad6d8]
Those are old leaves. Shielding them with floating plants seem to slow down the yellowing.
Warm regards,
Lawrence Lee
brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Philippians 4:8
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