I give up on the atomizer... The indicator on Intense regulator is the "BAR" supposedly the working pressure, does it also indicate how much co2 left? Other than feeling how heaving the canister is haha
You can sort of tell by the pressure reading on the single gauge, if its higher like 900-1100 PSI, then that shows the total tank pressure... if its lower like 50-60 PSI, then that shows working pressure.Originally Posted by Ingen
Btw, 1 Bar = 14.5037738 PSI.
I believe intense solenoid gives you the working pressure, not how much left.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi guys, thanks for the support
For those interested in the Co2 mist theory, the paper to read is Volume 1, Issue 10 oct 2005 of the Barr Report, available at Tom Barr's website of the same name (but you need to pay a subscription fee). His papers are valuable because of usage of high-end equipment to accurately test variables in the planted aquarium, something out of reach of hobbyist's test kits. The papers are very detailed and cover many topics, but may be hard to read.
Some stuff that I missed out in the video:
If you use mist/atomizers, they will use much more CO2 than reactors, which are very efficient. Amano's home tanks, Tom barr's as well all use reactors, as well as plenty of other folks so it should not be seen that the inline diffuser is the superior method; it's just the one that I use for convenience now. If you're super anal about having the efficiency of a CO2 reactor combined with some misting effect, you can google Tom barr's venturi reactor which gives this (arguably its the ultimate CO2 delivery method).
The drop checker should be placed in the most disadvantages position of the tank; i.e. near the substrate, at a corner. As CO2 mist floats upwards, the higher areas of the tank will get better access to CO2/flow esp if you rely heavily on misting. If your stem plants all do well, but carpet plants don't, it may be a sign that water flow isn't delivering to the substrate level. (This is the number 1 cause of failure to grow carpets, not sure I mentioned in the vid). People that rely on misting are more vulnerable to this than people who use reactors.
Last point that I missed is that plants can take up to a week to adjust their rubisco functions (the enzyme that collects CO2), so while CO2 impact can generally be seen quite quickly, the full effect can take up to a week to manifest.
I thought I should just share my experience on using this up-aqua new atomizer after reading that some of you are giving up on that equipment.
A couple weeks ago after doing my canister maintenance, I fixed back everything and assumed it ran as normal. But when it was time for my CO2 to come on, I no longer see the mist produced. The bubble counter also showed the count slowly reducing till not bubbling. Checked my working pressure and was the normal at 50+; using the new ANS regulator with solenoid valve. Checked the whole system and realised the atomizer was almost totally filled with water. Shut the canister, detached the atomizer from my outflow pipe, empty the water, attached only my CO2 tube to the atomizer and turn on the CO2. After I can hear some sizzling from the atomizer which means the CO2 is being pushed through the atomizer, I reconnect the outflow pipe and turn on the canister again. I can see the CO2 mist again!
It worked for me so perhaps those not able to see the mist may try what I did and see if it helps.
Yeah, thats a good tip... when the atomizer is filled with water, the back-pressure of the water volume in the chamber prevents the Co2 gas from getting to the ceramic tube (it has to displace the water back out through the ceramic tube first, which is difficult), in some systems the back-pressure is high enough to actually totally stop the gas output.
Good tip.Thanks for sharing your experience.
I'll keep it in mind.
Hi Dennis,
I've read much about reactors and the added benefits it brings. One thing that draws me to the use of reactor is the mist free tank. It's really awesome to see only the plants pearling in a tank with no Co2 microbubbles. I tried using a reactor for my 4 feet tank for a month and the below are my observations:
1. I used more Co2 when compared with a diffuser. (as seen by the number of bubbles per sec)
2. Had to switch on the Co2 solenoid 4 hours before lights on. (with the inline diffuser, it's 2 hours).
3. Reduced flow from the external canister filter ( Eheim 2080).
4. If too much Co2 is dialed in, gas started to build up in the top part of the reactor.
I was never able to get the DC to lime green and this made BBA, bloom at a very high rate. I'm combating BBA as a result till today.My plants took the most serious hit and started to melt.
I still have the reactor with me, collecting dust.
From online posts in many forums, I've noticed that most of the time, people tend to give up after some time due to BBA taking over their tank.
So is a Co2 reactor only suitable for mid sized tanks only ( e.g smaller than 70 gallons)? Can you give us some tips for a more efficient use of reactor?
Cheers.
P.S. Please post more awesome videos on your YouTube channel. I'm waiting.....
Hmm actually reactors are suitable for larger tanks, whereas it's easier to get diffuser mist distributed in a smaller tank. There are many types of reactors though, and they have different efficiencies and need a certain flow rate to work properly. There is quite a lot of tweaking where reactor design and flow rates are concerned to get effective dissolution. One observation on local shops is that a lot of the reactors sold seem quite small size - perhaps they don't work as well on larger tanks and you may have to go the DIY route. Whether you have a reactor that captures all of the CO2, or release some of it as mist is another thing to consider - this can prevent the gas-buildup in point 4. Misting using diffuser is less technical in comparison, so less fiddling for the hobbyist. When used properly, reactors are actually more efficient than diffusers. BBA is definitely caused by fluctuating/low CO2 - one of the few algaes that have quite a clear causation chain. It's also one of the easiest to get rid of in that sense; as CO2 levels improve and plant vigor is regained, it disappears by itself quite quickly.
Agree with Xiaozhuang, i've also found that the Co2 reactor designs currently on sale at LFS are designed mainly for tank volumes of 3ft (182+ liters) or below. For larger tank volumes that need to inject alot more Co2, the bubbles per second (BPS) rate ends up so high that the gas quickly fills up the reactor chamber, which renders it ineffective as there is a limit on the amount of Co2 that can dissolve based on the size of the chamber.
From my experience, the Sera/ISTA reactor designs commonly sold at LFS work most optimally within the range of 1-3 BPS injection rate with ample flow rate (700-1,000 l/ph)... any higher injection rate (ie. 4-5 BPS or higher, worse if the BPS is uncountable) and the Co2 gas starts to overfill the chamber faster than it can be dissolved.
Therefore DIY or custom made reactors would need to be used for larger tanks instead, designed with much larger mixing chambers that have wider surface area (maybe 2-3 times the size of off-the-shelf reactors) to hold the higher volume of gas from increased injection rates during the mixing process.
That being said, i've recently visited a friends home and checked out his 4ft planted tank (4 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 243 liters) which managed to get around that issue. The tank is setup with 2 x Eheim 2217 canister filters (2 x 1,000 l/ph) along with 2 pairs of outflow and inflows, positioned diagonally opposite to each other to optimize circulation (one set is at front left, while the other set is at back right).
Now the benefit of using 2 canister filters (other than more filter volume and better circulation) is that he can also use 2 reactors, this splits the Co2 dissolving "load" between 2 reactor chambers, which means less BPS can be fed to each reactor, which in turn allows them to run at their optimum efficiency without too much gas overfilling each chamber. His Co2 system is basically installed with a 2-way splitter which connects to both reactors and tuned so that each reactor unit gets around 2-3 BPS. He mentioned the Co2 is scheduled to switch on 1 hour before lights on and switch off 1 hour before lights off. I observed the few drop checkers attached at different parts the tank and all were lime green in color during the active photoperiod.
Seems like a good arrangement for larger tank volumes which want to use off-the-shelf reactors, can try using multiple units to divide the load.
Hope that observation helps.
Thats what I thought too before I ventured into reactors.
Like what Tom Barr shows on his website? The one using a water purifier canister?
The key words here is "properly". The sad this is, by the time I try to find the "proper way", BBA takes over.
As much as I would love to retry reactors, I'm like "once bitten twice shy" for now. Maybe once I have gained enough knowledge like UA / Shadow, I may open up the pandora box (aka try the Co2 reactor)
OK.....this give me an excellent idea, why don't you make a YOUTube vid on this subject(BBA).Challenge accepted?
As for BBA disappearing on it own, I have read in Tom Barr's articles, where he states that old BBA had to be taken out physically or by dosing Excel or H2O2. It would never go away on it own. What can disappear are the new growths which are in the starting stage.
Yours thought on this?
Cheers.
Every battles I have fought against BBA end up the same... BBA 3 - Ingen 0. I did excel and h202 punch + blast co2 all failed to work. I realized the best cure is prevention, these days once I spot a single BBA I will spot excel immediately lol.
Yup this is what happen to me.
Thanks UA. I'm have 2 canisters for my 4 feet and I have always wondered if I was over filtering. So I do have the hope of using a reactor....not now....but later.checked out his 4ft planted tank (4 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 243 liters) which managed to get around that issue. The tank is setup with 2 x Eheim 2217 canister filters (2 x 1,000 l/ph) along with 2 pairs of outflow and inflows, positioned diagonally opposite to each other to optimize circulation (one set is at front left, while the other set is at back right).
Now the benefit of using 2 canister filters (other than more filter volume and better circulation) is that he can also use 2 reactors, this splits the Co2 dissolving "load" between 2 reactor chambers, which means less BPS can be fed to each reactor, which in turn allows them to run at their optimum efficiency without too much gas overfilling each chamber. His Co2 system is basically installed with a 2-way splitter which connects to both reactors and tuned so that each reactor unit gets around 2-3 BPS. He mentioned the Co2 is scheduled to switch on 1 hour before lights on and switch off 1 hour before lights off. I observed the few drop checkers attached at different parts the tank and all were lime green in color during the active photoperiod.
Seems like a good arrangement for larger tank volumes which want to use off-the-shelf reactors, can try using multiple units to divide the load.
Hope that observation helps.
Resistance is futile, you will be administrated!
I use a custom made CO2 reactor for my 6 foot tank with sump. Drop checker shows lime green. Got it from NA Nature Aquarium years ago but self-modified recently for higher flow. Not sure if he still makes those. I'll post photos of it later or tomorrow. My hoses and pipings are huge, so it's rare to find off the shelf solutions. My bps is uncountable. I just ordered parts to rig up a multiple bubble counter system. Will show that off once its done up.
Speaking of clearing BBA, there's an active thread talking about Easylife Algexit algicide which seems to work for some people without harming the live stock.
~ Sent via Tapatalk ~
Vincent - AQ is for everyone, but not for 'u' and 'mi'.
Why use punctuation? See what a difference it makes:A woman, without her man, is nothing.
A woman: without her, man is nothing.
Hi Vinz,
Yes I have seen it at NA. He has them in stock occasionally. But that thing is so huge! My cabinet is now already crammed with Co2 cylinder and 2 ext canisters and all those timers.
And as for Algexit, I had tried it for 1 to 1 1/2 months but I didn't see any improvement for BBA. I contacted EasyLife directly and even they accepted the fact that Algexit works for some tanks, its like 50/50 situation.
But Algexit is excellent for green hair algae though.
Now I'm slowly increasing Co2 output and flow and observing the BBA. The thing that bugs me now is that my BBS is not consistent through my ANS Co2 regulator.I'm following your post on that.
Hahaa, To be completely honest, I have not gotton enough BBA in my tanks to experiment with it. I've seen it in my tanks like twice in the past 15 years, each case mild and disappeared quickly after growth parameters are dialed in (without any use of algicide etc). When I observe it in shops and other people's tanks, it is always associated with slow growth conditions - primarily CO2 related. I do think that Excel/algaecide/H2O2 can be a temporary quick fix for severe cases, but unless the base issues are fixed, then they will always remain as band aids on a problem that returns again and again. Whereas if you have good parameters, then mild cases go away fast, and no nukes are necessary - so having good underlying parameters are much more important.
OK.....this give me an excellent idea, why don't you make a YOUTube vid on this subject(BBA).
As for BBA disappearing on it own, I have read in Tom Barr's articles, where he states that old BBA had to be taken out physically or by dosing Excel or H2O2. It would never go away on it own. What can disappear are the new growths which are in the starting stage.
Yours thought on this?
Cheers.
Cures for algae tend to be holistic - all round good plant growth, good water quality, good CO2 levels and not excessive lighting; a regular schedule of water changes/pruning/fertilization. Understanding the needs of the plants you are keeping is also important. Algae tend to be indicative of our habits more than anything else- those who run conservative growth rates, low rates of CO2 often face BBA. Those that run greedy high light high CO2 tanks often run into Cladophora, or green dust. The thing is that many aquarists try to hit fixed ideal parameters instead of adjusting according to plant/algae growth. So they see the same problems over and over again, and turn to harsher and harsher products (H2O2, algicide, Twinstar.. lol ...) etc). This is the aquatic equivalent of slimming pills. The short answer is that there is seldom a quick fix; it takes time to learn the individual aspects of running a planted tank. The more you experiment and observe, that understanding will you give you knowledge on what works. In the youtube channel I'm more interested in maintaining tank/plant health holistically - not solving piecemeal problems with quick fixes.
Tuning CO2 is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for those running a high tech tank. For those of you at your wits end on this, my extreme advice is to throw away your drop checkers and pH probes... tune CO2 slowly over a few days by watching plant & fish reaction instead. At then end of the day, those are your targets - plant and fish health. Work towards this directly; learn to interpret when fish get distressed, and plants get adequate CO2. Never again will you be shackled to the mediocre standards set by mechanical instruments.
Last edited by vinz; 25th Apr 2015 at 07:58.
wowwwwww. THAT is advice, guys.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I like the slimming pills analogy...😊
Resistance is futile, you will be administrated!
David, please share some tips on observation while adjusting CO2. For fishes, its quite fast and obvious - gasping at surface. How long does it take in your experience for the fishes to react? Or rather how long does it take for CO2 levels to max out for the given BPS, and therefore we can be pretty sure that the fishes will be fine for the rest of the day?
On the other hand, plants and algae take longer to react or show effects. What do you look out for? How long does it take? What are looking for daily? How do you conclude that your fertilizing is OK, and its mostly CO2 issues?
For example, in my case the plants are doing OK, but dust algae keeps coming back. Hair or thread algae shows up occasionally.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Vincent - AQ is for everyone, but not for 'u' and 'mi'.
Why use punctuation? See what a difference it makes:A woman, without her man, is nothing.
A woman: without her, man is nothing.
Fish don't gasp at the surface immediately. They generally will become less active, then mid level fish will start hanging out at the top level, bottom dwellers may panic, then lastly gasping at the surface. Healthy signs are; fish are lively and looking for food, fast reaction times for fast fish, males flare/chase females, good coloration. How long till CO2 saturation depends on tank dimensions and CO2 injection methodology (video shows why BPS should not be used as a measuring unit); it can take anywhere from half hour to 2 hours. If you want your fish to be absolutely safe, tune CO2 levels at night, when the lights are off. This is when plant/bacteria/fish all take in O2 and produce CO2; if your CO2 levels don't harm fish at night, it'll be safe for sure in the day, even if your plants are not photosynthesizing/producing O2 well due to other reasons. Additional O2 through surface agitation/sump usage makes a big difference in how high you can tune your CO2. This is covered in the video... It is never necessary to tune CO2 so high as to diminish fish activity level. Sometimes, the smartest thing is actually to use less light - growth rates slow, and there is less demand for ferts/CO2. And significantly less algae issues. Learn to get good coloration through fertilization, rather than just using as much as light as possible. Some plants do better in rich conditions, others look the best when nutrients are leaner, growth is slower and less light is used. HC can be grown under a $12 Ikea desklamp, in a tank 20 inches deep - if your CO2 is on point.
Gauging CO2 levels by observing plants require prior experience. One can eliminate ferts from being a growth constraint by using a fat dosing regime like EI - which provides non-limiting nutrients unless you have an outlier amount of plant mass/light. This frees up the aquarist to concentrate on tweaking light/CO2. Having a good record sheet helps in observation & learning tremendously. Plants lag; so you can only interpret today's growth by looking back what happened in the week. Hardier, competitive plants such as Rotala rotundifolia, Hemianthus glomeratus, M. umbrosum will react faster to changing environment. In these fast growers, having progressively smaller new leaves can point to poor CO2. Significant stem elongation often hints at poor O2, flow, which results in ethylene buildup in the meristem. Once tanks stabilize, colored plants such as Ludwigia pantanal, R. macrandra, deteriorate in coloration quickly if fertilization doesn't upkeep with growth rates.
Example of a record sheet for a tank
Mini macrandra; sensitive to ferts/ demanding in terms of light/CO2
L. Pantanal grows very fast, and diminishes coloration quickly if fert dosing is not optimal. Grows 4-6 inches a week in high light, rich conditions
L. Glandulosa; left fresh from shop with low lighting/CO2, right after growing in fat conditions
Progressively smaller leaves on HC; sure sign of lack of CO2
Last edited by Xiaozhuang; 26th Apr 2015 at 06:27.
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks