An excellent video on Co2 for newbies like me :-)

[vinz]

Thanks David.

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[leehyeok]

Hi david, just curious how do you measure the fertilizer amount to add for your tank and may i know what is the unit that is being used in your record sheet.

[Xiaozhuang]

Haa, it's Dennis not david, but in Singapore people just use my chinese name normally.

I measure it using a balance used to measure flour; can be bought at supermarkets/baking shops accurate to 1 gram. There are some accurate to half-gram, so get those if you can find them. Lab balances can be more accurate, but may be more costly. The numbers on my dosing sheet are in PPM (parts per million) , which is the same as Mg/L.

[mercur1al]

Fish don't gasp at the surface immediately. They generally will become less active, then mid level fish will start hanging out at the top level, bottom dwellers may panic, then lastly gasping at the surface. Healthy signs are; fish are lively and looking for food, fast reaction times for fast fish, males flare/chase females, good coloration. How long till CO2 saturation depends on tank dimensions and CO2 injection methodology (video shows why BPS should not be used as a measuring unit); it can take anywhere from half hour to 2 hours. If you want your fish to be absolutely safe, tune CO2 levels at night, when the lights are off. This is when plant/bacteria/fish all take in O2 and produce CO2; if your CO2 levels don't harm fish at night, it'll be safe for sure in the day, even if your plants are not photosynthesizing/producing O2 well due to other reasons. Additional O2 through surface agitation/sump usage makes a big difference in how high you can tune your CO2. This is covered in the video... It is never necessary to tune CO2 so high as to diminish fish activity level. Sometimes, the smartest thing is actually to use less light - growth rates slow, and there is less demand for ferts/CO2. And significantly less algae issues. Learn to get good coloration through fertilization, rather than just using as much as light as possible. Some plants do better in rich conditions, others look the best when nutrients are leaner, growth is slower and less light is used. HC can be grown under a $12 Ikea desklamp, in a tank 20 inches deep - if your CO2 is on point.

Gauging CO2 levels by observing plants require prior experience. One can eliminate ferts from being a growth constraint by using a fat dosing regime like EI - which provides non-limiting nutrients unless you have an outlier amount of plant mass/light. This frees up the aquarist to concentrate on tweaking light/CO2. Having a good record sheet helps in observation & learning tremendously. Plants lag; so you can only interpret today's growth by looking back what happened in the week. Hardier, competitive plants such as Rotala rotundifolia, Hemianthus glomeratus, M. umbrosum will react faster to changing environment. In these fast growers, having progressively smaller new leaves can point to poor CO2. Significant stem elongation often hints at poor O2, flow, which results in ethylene buildup in the meristem. Once tanks stabilize, colored plants such as Ludwigia pantanal, R. macrandra, deteriorate in coloration quickly if fertilization doesn't upkeep with growth rates.


Example of a record sheet for a tank


Mini macrandra; sensitive to ferts/ demanding in terms of light/CO2


L. Pantanal grows very fast, and diminishes coloration quickly if fert dosing is not optimal. Grows 4-6 inches a week in high light, rich conditions


L. Glandulosa; left fresh from shop with low lighting/CO2, right after growing in fat conditions


Progressively smaller leaves on HC; sure sign of lack of CO2

Hi Dennis, thanks for sharing! Great tank by the way, breathtaking.

I'm fairly curious about your fert regime. What do you rose for iron? Dry ferts? Do you overdose iron?

I have rotala macrandra, AR mini but they are more of a copper color at the moment. I dose 1pump of tropica premium fert(all micros + potassium), and seachem iron and phosphorous twice weekly according to the seachem dosage.

Tank is a regular 60x30x36, fairly heavy planted. I don't dose nitrates for now as the tank has a fairly high bioload.


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[Xiaozhuang]

I dose iron through a mix of chelated Fe 13% EDTA and plantex CSM + B. Hmm I dose similar amounts of Fe, but probably more traces. But I probably have a richer substrate as well. Color or redness isn't just a function of Iron; it's just that iron chelates breakdown in the aquarium faster that other ferts so it is generally more under-dosed compared to say NPK.

Different plants get redder in different situations, so there is not a universal approach. Rich fertilization/ high light/high CO2 will make some plants very red ; for example Ludwigia sp. red, AR minis, mini macrandras. Others look better with deeper colors under lean fertilization/slower growing conditions; Rotala rotundifolia, Ludwigia arcuata - this group also becomes significantly more colored under nitrate limitation (simulate a period of lean fertilization). All round good plant health will give reasonably good coloration; after this is achieved, you can tweak to either extreme end to get deeper colors.

[mercur1al]

I dose iron through a mix of chelated Fe 13% EDTA and plantex CSM + B. Hmm I dose similar amounts of Fe, but probably more traces. But I probably have a richer substrate as well. Color or redness isn't just a function of Iron; it's just that iron chelates breakdown in the aquarium faster that other ferts so it is generally more under-dosed compared to say NPK.

Different plants get redder in different situations, so there is not a universal approach. Rich fertilization/ high light/high CO2 will make some plants very red ; for example Ludwigia sp. red, AR minis, mini macrandras. Others look better with deeper colors under lean fertilization/slower growing conditions; Rotala rotundifolia, Ludwigia arcuata - this group also becomes significantly more colored under nitrate limitation (simulate a period of lean fertilization). All round good plant health will give reasonably good coloration; after this is achieved, you can tweak to either extreme end to get deeper colors.

I just started on the regime of fertilization as this is a relatively new tank. Will observe the red plants for coloration before deciding if i should increase the dosage of Seachem iron. I contemplated going EI Dosing as well, but the lack of KNO3 here in Singapore puts me off slightly. While most enthusiasts use replacements, i chose the lazy and convenient way out, to use the Tropica premium ferts. Being an all in one premixed fert, the iron portion should be slightly lacking, hence the supplement using seachem iron.

You mentioned a richer substrate? I remember you mentioning about peat before. Will probably explore that when i rescape the tank. The light is fairly decent in my tank, I'm using a LED with 36W, or 72 x 0.5W LED around 7000k spectrum. The other plants (rotala macrandra sp green), Rotala Wallichii is showing good growth, tips of the wallichii are all red. The Rotala Macrandra has retained its redness, though new growth is slightly lighter as compared to older growth, hence my belief that iron is slightly lacking. The AR mini was from Tropica 1-2grow, seems that it was earlier transiting to submerged form, the leaves had some holes and turned copper coloured. New growth is extremely slow though, so i will have to continue observing.

Thanks for your advise!

[vinz]

Hi Dennis. So sorry to get your name wrong.

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[Xiaozhuang]

I just started on the regime of fertilization as this is a relatively new tank. Will observe the red plants for coloration before deciding if i should increase the dosage of Seachem iron. I contemplated going EI Dosing as well, but the lack of KNO3 here in Singapore puts me off slightly. While most enthusiasts use replacements, i chose the lazy and convenient way out, to use the Tropica premium ferts. Being an all in one premixed fert, the iron portion should be slightly lacking, hence the supplement using seachem iron.

You mentioned a richer substrate? I remember you mentioning about peat before. Will probably explore that when i rescape the tank. The light is fairly decent in my tank, I'm using a LED with 36W, or 72 x 0.5W LED around 7000k spectrum. The other plants (rotala macrandra sp green), Rotala Wallichii is showing good growth, tips of the wallichii are all red. The Rotala Macrandra has retained its redness, though new growth is slightly lighter as compared to older growth, hence my belief that iron is slightly lacking. The AR mini was from Tropica 1-2grow, seems that it was earlier transiting to submerged form, the leaves had some holes and turned copper coloured. New growth is extremely slow though, so i will have to continue observing.

Thanks for your advise!

Leaves with holes might be a lack of potassium/CO2, not so much iron related.

[vinz]

BTW, found the link to the new nutrient calculator: http://rota.la

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[Filet-O-Fish]

Fish don't gasp at the surface immediately. They generally will become less active, then mid level fish will start hanging out at the top level, bottom dwellers may panic, then lastly gasping at the surface. Healthy signs are; fish are lively and looking for food, fast reaction times for fast fish, males flare/chase females, good coloration. How long till CO2 saturation depends on tank dimensions and CO2 injection methodology (video shows why BPS should not be used as a measuring unit); it can take anywhere from half hour to 2 hours. If you want your fish to be absolutely safe, tune CO2 levels at night, when the lights are off. This is when plant/bacteria/fish all take in O2 and produce CO2; if your CO2 levels don't harm fish at night, it'll be safe for sure in the day, even if your plants are not photosynthesizing/producing O2 well due to other reasons. Additional O2 through surface agitation/sump usage makes a big difference in how high you can tune your CO2. This is covered in the video... It is never necessary to tune CO2 so high as to diminish fish activity level. Sometimes, the smartest thing is actually to use less light - growth rates slow, and there is less demand for ferts/CO2. And significantly less algae issues. Learn to get good coloration through fertilization, rather than just using as much as light as possible. Some plants do better in rich conditions, others look the best when nutrients are leaner, growth is slower and less light is used. HC can be grown under a $12 Ikea desklamp, in a tank 20 inches deep - if your CO2 is on point.

Gauging CO2 levels by observing plants require prior experience. One can eliminate ferts from being a growth constraint by using a fat dosing regime like EI - which provides non-limiting nutrients unless you have an outlier amount of plant mass/light. This frees up the aquarist to concentrate on tweaking light/CO2.

Hi Dennis, UA, Shadow
Since you guys seem to know about Co2, maybe you can tell what's happening in my tank. I can't seem to comprehend whats going on in my tank. So here come the details:

Tank: 300 litres
Substrate: ADA soil
Lighting via LED AquaZonic IP3.
Lighting period 6 hours

Filtration via 2 numbers of Eheim 20280. One 2080 attached to a chiller and the other direct to tank.
Inflow and outflow via glass lily pipes used

Co2 via injected Co2, using ANS brand Co2 regulator. Co2 into tank via 2 numbers of UP brand inline diffuser by using 2 way splitters.
The bubbles count is 7bbs for each diffuser, so that's a total of 14 bubbles for both diffusers.

Now this is where I'm not so clear.

7.30am - my Co2 is switched on two & half hours before lights on at 10am.

10.00am - I see the DC is green at lights on (10am) and fish activity is good and active.

11.30am to 12.30pm - plants are "pearling". Fish is active. DC is green.

BUT by 1.00pm, DC is lime green and most of the fish gasping until Co2 is switched off. Plants pearling more.

3.00pm - Co2 switched off.

3.30pm - Fish resume to be safe and active.

4.00pm - lights off

6.00pm till 4.00am - small pump starts to create surface agitation to degas Co2 and for better O2 levels.

From observing the fish's response and DC colour change from 1.00pm to 3.30pm, can I gather that my Co2 level is not constant and is therefore the main cause of BBA which started appearing about 4 months ago.

What changes can I make to have constant Co2 and thereby eliminate / reduce BBA growth.

Cheers. :-)

[Urban Aquaria]

Here is my take on it...

Drop checker readings are usually delayed by 1-2 hours, so the color measurement you see is the Co2 level 1-2 hours ago, hence when you see the DC lime green, the actual Co2 levels could already have accumulated much higher, this is especially so if you are running high BPS injection rates, it exceeds the tipping point and then quickly goes on to "overdose" mode (the effects are much faster compared to a lower BPS setup)... which is likely why your fishes are gasping at the water surface at 1pm. The Co2 levels crossed the safe threshold for those fishes at that timing. Some fishes are more sensitive to higher Co2 levels than others.

When you see some of your fishes gasping like that during the Co2 injection period, its an indication to fine tune and adjust the BPS injection rate and schedule so that the Co2 levels stay optimal yet still safe for the fishes (at this moment it is peak levels are higher than what those fishes can tolerate). You are already very close to achieving the right settings, it just requires just abit further fine tuning to strike the nice balance.

As for the consistency in Co2 levels, i guess one factor could be your running of a pump during night time which increases surface agitation to off-gas the Co2, the next day the Co2 levels will have to start from a low level so you need to inject more Co2 to build it up again, which probably creates an up and down curve.

Not sure if that has any cause or effect on BBA though... many planted tank keepers also practice increasing aeration during night time (even the display tanks at ADA gallery also do that too), yet BBA doesn't seem to be a big issue for them. Maybe it could be other causes.

In my case, i tune my BPS and injection schedule as per normal so that the drop checker is maintained at lime green color during lights on, but i don't do anything to off-gas the Co2 during night time, so the drop checker still stays green to dark green throughout the night (my fishes and shrimps are still okay as the water has already been well oxygenated by the pearling plants during the day, at night they rest and require less oxygen anyways)... the next day the Co2 injection starts again but it only needs to add slight amounts to the existing Co2 levels, it doesn't have to build it up all the way from low levels again, so the Co2 levels stay relatively constant with less up and downs.

With this kind of setup, i use less Co2 because my BPS injection rate doesn't need to be tuned at high counts just to keep rebuilding it from low levels every day.

One thing i've learnt is that its possible to have both ample Co2 and high oxygen levels in the tank (they can co-exist), and both are independent resources that stay in the tank until its used up, so its not necessary to pull one low just to push one higher.

[vinz]

Filet-o-fish, do you have 1 inline diffuser per filter or both on one? Are your filter outlets distributed to different parts of the tank? Are your BBA all over the tank or only in certain areas?

I discovered in my old tank that I could get rid of BBA by pointing my rain bar towards where they were growing. But they'll just grow elsewhere. I thought it was water flow or circulation. But later I read that it is CO2 distribution.

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[Xiaozhuang]

UA gives a good explanation. I do a more wasteful setup ; I run surface agitation 24/7, and subsequently during lighting hours, I run higher CO2 than what would be necessary if there was no off-gassing. My tanks CO2 levels definitely fluctuate a lot between night and day. However, having a constant level in the day is the important part; CO2 assimilation is a resource intensive activity for plants, its carefully tuned and timed to the light cycle - so stability is important. Some plants react faster/better to changes in environment and are less affected - HM, Micrathemum umbrosum, etc. Typically you realize BBA attacks the slow growers - java ferns etc. When any algae preferentially attaches itself to plants - this is a good hint that the plant is stressed in some manner. Stressed plants release proteins and other organics as they reshuffle their biological structures to adapt to the environment, and this expunging of organic waste can trigger some algae spores to bloom.

Some other questions; is this a new/recent setup, an established one that has been running stable for some time, or an older setup. Also, is it a tank predominately of slower growers ? water chance schedule/fert cycle are useful to know also

[Filet-O-Fish]

Filet-o-fish, do you have 1 inline diffuser per filter or both on one? Are your filter outlets distributed to different parts of the tank? Are your BBA all over the tank or only in certain areas?

I discovered in my old tank that I could get rid of BBA by pointing my rain bar towards where they were growing. But they'll just grow elsewhere. I thought it was water flow or circulation. But later I read that it is CO2 distribution.

Hi Vinz :-)
I'm having one in-line diffuser per canister filter.
As for the outlets layout, please see the graphic below which I drew . A picture is worth a thousand words:-)

Good question. I always seem to have the most BBA growth on the red shaded area. In fact thats where it first showed up in my tank.

Just like you I once used spray bars. It was a disaster after my plants mass increased. My plants started to melt due to insufficient Co2. My Co2 bubbles rate was rocket high, (managed to finish a 5 litre tank in 28 days) All of my plants just wanted to grow towards the surface and they were lanky and with thin stems. The lower leaves would just melt off. This is the period I was also trying out a Co2 reactor too. After that, BBA took a strong foothold in my tank.
On hindsight, maybe I was having too much surface agitation and degassing Co2 at a faster rate. It was thanks to the guys at Aquatic Avenue (Redhill), who convinced me to use lily pipes.

After a period 30 days with using lily pipes, all the plants just started to grow like crazy. Even now, I have to trim the plants every week. If not, they would just take over the tank. Also I have decreased Co2 bubble rate from uncountable to the present rate of 7 bbs per in-line diffuser. But sadly BBA hasn't subsided.

[vinz]

Read that BBA won't go away even after you've fixed things. So you have to remove them and see if they come back.

Hmmm... Coincidentally, the BBA and poor growth area is at the tail end of the flow from your filter with chiller. The chiller probably cuts down the flow rate of your filter a fair bit. If you're up to it, consider swapping your filter outputs to see what happens?

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[Filet-O-Fish]

Hi UA :-)
First of all, thanks for the concise and to the point reply. Kudos to you.

Drop checker readings are usually delayed by 1-2 hours, so the color measurement you see is the Co2 level 1-2 hours ago, hence when you see the DC lime green, the actual Co2 levels could already have accumulated much higher, this is especially so if you are running high BPS injection rates, it exceeds the tipping point and then quickly goes on to "overdose" mode (the effects are much faster compared to a lower BPS setup)... which is likely why your fishes are gasping at the water surface at 1pm.

You are absolutely right. How could I have forgotten that!

Some fishes are more sensitive to higher Co2 levels than others.

Yes, I do notice that my Diamond tetras are the first to gasp followed by my Congo tetras. However Rummynose tetras don't seem to mind the high Co2 but I do notice that they do go into slow motion mode.

You are already very close to achieving the right settings, it just requires just a bit further fine tuning to strike the nice balance.

Sweet music to my ears.

As for the consistency in Co2 levels, i guess one factor could be your running of a pump during night time which increases surface agitation to off-gas the Co2, the next day the Co2 levels will have to start from a low level so you need to inject more Co2 to build it up again, which probably creates an up and down curve.

In fact I did try on not having any surface agitation during the night for a week. The thing that I was apprehensive about, was the green / lime green DC colour shown throughout the evening and night. My thought was that since Co2 is present at high levels and is acidic, I didn't want it to have any negative effect on the beneficial bacteria.
Apart from that my fish were happy and active even when the DC was green or lime green in the evenings.
The added bonus was that the DC was a nice green even before the lights were on and I actually had to decrease Co2 rate.

It seems that many "overseas" forums strongly advocate lots of surface agitation coupled with 10X filtration rate. A concept I fail to understand till today.

One thing i've learnt is that its possible to have both ample Co2 and high oxygen levels in the tank (they can co-exist), and both are independent resources that stay in the tank until its used up, so its not necessary to pull one low just to push one higher.

That's what I'm trying figure out too. As rightly pointed out by Dennis in his Youtube video, when you have good O2 levels, one can actually increase Co2 even more. This way, both the fauna and flora are in good healthy condition.
When you see ADA tank setups, they hardly have any surface agitation at all and the surface is almost still during lights on period. This is what I tried to replicate in my tank. I have almost no surface agitation during the day and surface agitation during the nights.

Can we rely on the O2 produced by the plants during the photoperiod?

Could I be having too much flow in my tank due to the two 2080 Eheim filters?
It seems that BBA likes strong flow areas.
One very interesting thing I noted during my last water changes was that, when I removed a stone which was covered with BBA (placed in the red shaded area in the above posted photo), I noticed that the side which faced the flow was having BBA growth and the other side which was facing away from the flow was in MINT condition. I can't seem to understand on why this is happening. Why didn't BBA grow on the other side.

What I'll do now is maybe switch off surface agitation pump and observe the result.

In the meantime I hope Dennis, Shadow and other members can input their valuable points, the same goes to you, UA.

Cheers.

[Filet-O-Fish]

Read that BBA won't go away even after you've fixed things. So you have to remove them and see if they come back.

Trust me, Vinz. However much I tried to remove, that #$%@* BBA comes back. Trimming, Excel / hydrogen peroxide spot treatment....etc...etc.

Hmmm... Coincidentally, the BBA and poor growth area is at the tail end of the flow from your filter with chiller. The chiller probably cuts down the flow rate of your filter a fair bit. If you're up to it, consider swapping your filter outputs to see what happens?

Yes, thats what I thought too. But you see the plant movement at that area is full of gentle movement which in indicative of good flow. Please correct me I'm wrong.
If the flow was bad to that area, naturally there would be no or less gentle movement of leaves. I do have to add that the leaves in that area are more prone to melting. How can you have good movement of plants in that area and yet have poor Co2 supply.
God! This is like some kind of voodoo thing.

Good night.

[Urban Aquaria]

Can we rely on the O2 produced by the plants during the photoperiod?

If your plants are pearling during the active photoperiod, it is a good visual indication that oxygen levels are high in the tank and it should usually be enough to supply the fauna with sufficient oxygen to carry them over to the next day.

Though whether the oxygen reserves are actually sufficient to go around would also depend very much on the stocking ratio of the tank too, less livestock = less oxygen being used (no need extra oxygenation during lights off). Conversely, more livestock = faster oxygen depletion (may still need some oxygenation during lights off).

[Filet-O-Fish]

If your plants are pearling during the active photoperiod, it is a good visual indication that oxygen levels are high in the tank and it should usually be enough to supply the fauna with sufficient oxygen to carry them over to the next day.

Though whether the oxygen reserves are actually sufficient to go around would also depend very much on the stocking ratio of the tank too, less livestock = less oxygen being used (no need extra oxygenation during lights off). Conversely, more livestock = faster oxygen depletion (may still need some oxygenation during lights off).

For now my fish count is only 10 Diamond tetras and 8 Rummynose. Algae eaters: 4 Otos, 6 Amanos and 40+ red cherry shrimps. Is this OK?

Every evening I see this on my plants. I guess this is sign of good oxygenation?

[Filet-O-Fish]

Some other questions; is this a new/recent setup, an established one that has been running stable for some time, or an older setup. Also, is it a tank predominately of slower growers ? water chance schedule/fert cycle are useful to know also

Humm..some how I seem to have missed your early reply.

The answers to your question:
The tank was set up on July 2014.


My plant profile:
Monte Carlo – Foreground
Staurogyne Repens – Midground
Lobelia cardinalis ‘small form’ – Midground
Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides' – Midground
Water Wisteria – Background - ( more of this plant in tank)
Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia' – Background
Hydrocotyle verticillata – Background
Ludwigia palustris– Background
Ammania sp bonsai - Midground

Water changes: 50% water change once a week.

EI dosing. Schedule as follows:

Saturday - Macro
3/4 tsp of KNO3 (equivalent dosed through liquid KNO3 from Dr.Malik)
1 3/4 tsp MgSO4
1/4 tsp of KH2PO4 (please note KH2PO4 dosed only once a week due to getting a 3 ppm reading throughout the week)

Sunday - 1/4 tsp Micro
( consist of : Fe 8.2%, Mn 1.82%, Zn 1.16%,B 1.05%, Cu 0.23%, Mo 0.15% )

Monday - Macro

Tuesday - 1/4 tsp Micro

Wednesday - Macro

Thursday - Rest day

Friday - Rest day, Friday evening do a 50% water change.



Algae issues:
No other algae in tank now, only BBA.
I used to have small spots of BBA on rock and wood about 4 months back. Once treated with hydrogen peroxide, it would subside or regrow after some time only. The growth would be confined to only certain small posts. Ever since I tried the Co2 reactor and changing of spray bar positions, BBA stated to spread more and in bigger patches. Now using lily pipes for the past 2 months.

I tested water 2 weeks ago. Phosphates was showing as 10 ppm. Stopped dosing KH2PO4 and after 2 water changes the level is now between 3 to 5 ppm.

Cheers.