How to beat BBA? CO2 questions

[cheeboonyong]

Hi,

I know it is a pretty old topic. Please bear with it if you've read similar threads before...

The supposed way to beat BBA is to have a consistent CO2 of 20-30 ppm during the photo-period, according to Plantbrain (Tom Barr), whom I think has considerable experience to back up his words than the average hobbyist. I do have a lot of respect for this statement and reading from the various positive experience from other people, it seems to work.

However, I did not manage to read the reasoning/logic behind it. So I'm wondering whether the CO2 vs BBA issue is more of a experimental deduction/observation or was there a detailed study made to explain why good CO2 stops BBA from spreading?

Also, going by this logic of CO2, then how about fish-only tanks (e.g., Cichlid rock tanks, Arowana tanks) and Diana Walstad styled-tanks (no CO2), shouldn't they be overwhelmed by BBA all the time? However, I don't think that is always the case. I know my father's parrotfish tank is free from BBA. I can't really explain it.

Lastly, is it absolutely necessary for the CO2 to be at a consistent level throughout the photoperiod? In other words, would it matter if it starts at 20ppm and ends with 30ppm?

[PeterGwee]

[quote:f4eb9a24ea="Cheeboonyong"]However, I did not manage to read the reasoning/logic behind it. So I'm wondering whether the CO2 vs BBA issue is more of a experimental deduction/observation or was there a detailed study made to explain why good CO2 stops BBA from spreading?[/quote:f4eb9a24ea]

Boonyong, you still have BBA issues? Are your nutrients well addressed in the first place? Maintenance? Did you clean the tank out well? If you are sure that the nutrients and maintenance work are well done, what is left then? CO2...Do you do CO2 24/7 or just during the photoperiod? Are your measurement at one point of the day only? If everything seems right and you still get BBA, then its measurement issues then. Algae are great bio indicators of a tank's condition. Something is not environmently right in your case. Try adding more CO2 to the tank and do the CO2 only during the photoperiod. Excess CO2 is fine during the photoperiod as long as your critters do not show any form of CO2 stress. Keep adding more CO2 slowly till the BBA stops growing (it might not die off by its own but will stop growing when the CO2 is good.). Eg. 2bps for now with BBA...add 2.2bps and monitor if the BBA keeps growing. Add more..2.4bps and monitor again and etc till the BBA stops growing.

[quote:f4eb9a24ea="Cheeboonyong"]Also, going by this logic of CO2, then how about fish-only tanks (e.g., Cichlid rock tanks, Arowana tanks) and Diana Walstad styled-tanks (no CO2), shouldn't they be overwhelmed by BBA all the time? However, I don't think that is always the case. I know my father's parrotfish tank is free from BBA. I can't really explain it. [/quote:f4eb9a24ea]

Light intensity, CO2 (when you raise it to non-limiting levels) and availability of spores does play some part here.

[quote:f4eb9a24ea="Cheeboonyong"]Lastly, is it absolutely necessary for the CO2 to be at a consistent level throughout the photoperiod? In other words, would it matter if it starts at 20ppm and ends with 30ppm?[/quote:f4eb9a24ea]

Yes, but excess CO2 during the photoperiod is fine as well as long as the critters are fine. Just don't let it dip below 20ppm if you can help it or else BBA will come back. Measurement issues does play some role here as well.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[cheeboonyong]

Yes, there was a let up of proper maintenance for a 2 week period, during which the CO2 also happen to run out. Talk about unfortunate timing.

Anyway, I suspect that measurement issues could be contributory factor. Any idea how long is the gestation period for BBA to grow from spores? Asking because I just cleaned one plastic pipe clean and observing it to see if NEW BBA grows on it. If nothing shows up, I know I have it beaten. But how long to wait? Oh, I can't explain why but the pipe ALWAYS gets hit by BBA. In fact, most inorganic stuff gets hit more severly and regularly compared to organic stuff like plants, driftwood, etc. Wonder why...

Back to the point though: Why does CO2 stop BBA? I know it's been proven in experimental manner but why?

[budak]

i remember one thread or post which proffered a possible mechanism, but I do notice that plants that are growing strongly, even those like java ferns and anubias, don't get BBA on their leaves. Only their very mature, about to turn yellow leaves would get some BBA.

[barmby]

Mr. Tom Barr's method is about inviting the plants to a buffet. Maintain CO2 @ 20-30 ppm during lighting period. And Macro and Micro in excess, with good lighting. This way the plants are never starve of ANYTHING and at the same time keeps the fishes happy. If it is possible, he would have ask us to maximise the CO2.

However, his estimative index also tell us that MACRO and MICRO cannot be too much. There are tolerances. If you are out of that tolerance, there bound to be problem...

There are many methods. This is one of them that is the easiest to do.

Personally, I believe if the lighting is strong, you have got to find someone to do the job and beat the algae to it.. By feeding plants with loads of nutrients and CO2...

[PeterGwee]

[quote:d80556fd6a="barmby"]
However, his estimative index also tell us that MACRO and MICRO cannot be too much. There are tolerances. If you are out of that tolerance, there bound to be problem...
[/quote:d80556fd6a]

Too much? How much is too much then? NO3..more than 40ppm is more of a critter issue than plant issue (plants have no issues at all). PO4? Bclee went havoc with it and came back with nothing.. The ranges given are general advice. As long as the nutrients are not limited and not grossly overdose (more of critter issue again.). There is no issue. 40ppm of NO3 and 5ppm of PO4 with plenty of traces still works without algae as long as the CO2 is well taken care of.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

[quote:3cb843b3b3="PeterGwee"][quote:3cb843b3b3="barmby"]
However, his estimative index also tell us that MACRO and MICRO cannot be too much. There are tolerances. If you are out of that tolerance, there bound to be problem...
[/quote:3cb843b3b3]

Too much? How much is too much then? NO3..more than 40ppm is more of a critter issue than plant issue (plants have no issues at all). PO4? Bclee went havoc with it and came back with nothing.. The ranges given are general advice. As long as the nutrients are not limited and not grossly overdose (more of critter issue again.). There is no issue. 40ppm of NO3 and 5ppm of PO4 with plenty of traces still works without algae as long as the CO2 is well taken care of.

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:3cb843b3b3]
Peter:

After fighting for more than a month for the BBA, I had removed all my plants and DW for bleach wash, likewise for those gravel with BBA. Put back on top layer with the cleaned gravel, and put back the DW and plants again. Crank up with CO2 now, PH 6.2 throughout the photo period , even the same in the morning around 6:30am (lighting period is from 1pm to 11pm). Wonder how this is possible (I think I ask this last time). dKH around 4-5. 40-50% water change after 3 days, and dose 10ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4, K 15ppm, Mg 3ppm, Seachem Iron 2 caps.

So far so good, no BBA , plants are growing and bubbling within an hour and throughout the photo period. Notice that green spot algae still persist on DW and front glass. This is the same old issue (green spot algae) I was tackling in the beginning , subsequently ended up with BBA, after following Tom's method, may be due to CO2 circulation was not good.

What do you suggest ? Continue with this routine (water change every 3 days and dosage as well as frequency ) ? If every 3 days, I want to reduce down to 25% every WC. Should I increase the PO4 dosage or increase the frequency of dosage ?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers
CHOK

[PeterGwee]

[quote:488c03bc0f="CHOK"]After fighting for more than a month for the BBA, I had removed all my plants and DW for bleach wash, likewise for those gravel with BBA. Put back on top layer with the cleaned gravel, and put back the DW and plants again. Crank up with CO2 now, PH 6.2 throughout the photo period , even the same in the morning around 6:30am (lighting period is from 1pm to 11pm). Wonder how this is possible (I think I ask this last time). dKH around 4-5. 40-50% water change after 3 days, and dose 10ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4, K 15ppm, Mg 3ppm, Seachem Iron 2 caps. [/quote:488c03bc0f]

You doing CO2 24/7? Don't do that with the CO2 incremental method.

KH is fine as long as it does not move around.

How much light do you have over the tank? No traces except iron? Drop the seachem iron and get the regular flourish instead. Stop the Mg dosage as well..you don't need it.

[quote:488c03bc0f="CHOK"]What do you suggest ? Continue with this routine (water change every 3 days and dosage as well as frequency ) ? If every 3 days, I want to reduce down to 25% every WC. Should I increase the PO4 dosage or increase the frequency of dosage ?[/quote:488c03bc0f]

Weekly 50% water changes should be fine. Keep harassing the algae and give what the plants want.
As above..how much light over the setup in wpg? Consider adding abit more CO2 and PO4.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[Plantbrain]

[quote:99b28ae2fb="cheeboonyong"]Hi,
However, I did not manage to read the reasoning/logic behind it. So I'm wondering whether the CO2 vs BBA issue is more of a experimental deduction/observation or was there a detailed study made to explain why good CO2 stops BBA from spreading?
[/quote:99b28ae2fb]

There is no study I am aware of, nor is the BBA market such that it would be a real practical issue So no, there is not study to show specifically why at elevated levels it does well wereas it does not in low CO2 or high CO2 tanks.

Varying the levels of CO2 between low/high seems to help BBA grow.

Also, going by this logic of CO2, then how about fish-only tanks (e.g., Cichlid rock tanks, Arowana tanks) and Diana Walstad styled-tanks (no CO2), shouldn't they be overwhelmed by BBA all the time? However, I don't think that is always the case. I know my father's parrotfish tank is free from BBA. I can't really explain it.

Non planted tanks don't need as much light, they also have low CO2, 3ppm or so. Algae, like plants, like CO2 and prefer it over HCO3 as a source of DIC carbon.

Something drives the BBA at really high levels of BBA to tell it to stop growing. This does not kill it, but stops new growth.

Once an algae stops growing, they you can beat it.

Non CO2 tanks are CO2 limited, this algae likes CO2, too much fries it, too little also prevents it from growing.

Folks that have BBA have CO2 levels in the middle.

Lastly, is it absolutely necessary for the CO2 to be at a consistent level throughout the photoperiod? In other words, would it matter if it starts at 20ppm and ends with 30ppm?

That would be fine, if it starts at 20 and ends up at 7-10ppm then you will get BBA.

CO2 is a two edged sword.
Used properly if can be useful and helpful.
Not used right, it will promote algae growth.
Algae and plants both prefer CO2.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[aqua]

hi

pardon me for asking this. will starting c02 injection 2 hours before lights on cause or encourage bba?

cheers

[PeterGwee]

[quote:3cde28e52c="aqua"]hi

pardon me for asking this. will starting c02 injection 2 hours before lights on cause or encourage bba?

cheers[/quote:3cde28e52c]

Doesn't matter as long as you have 20-30ppm during the entire photoperiod. Measurements do have errors in them..you'll need to account for some.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

[quote:822a491c86="PeterGwee"]

You doing CO2 24/7? Don't do that with the CO2 incremental method.

KH is fine as long as it does not move around.

[/quote:822a491c86]
CO2 injection starts 2 hrs before lighting and 30 mins before light off. Lighting starting from 1pm to 11pm.

[quote:822a491c86="PeterGwee"]
How much light do you have over the tank? No traces except iron? Drop the seachem iron and get the regular flourish instead. Stop the Mg dosage as well..you don't need it.
[/quote:822a491c86]

2 x 150w MH . Ok, shall get the flourish . How much to dose flourish after WC for 6x2x2 tank (estimated 400L + ).

[quote:822a491c86="PeterGwee"]Weekly 50% water changes should be fine. Keep harassing the algae and give what the plants want.
As above..how much light over the setup in wpg? Consider adding abit more CO2 and PO4.
[/quote:822a491c86]
More CO2 ? PH 6.2 and dKH of 4 => 70+ ppm of CO2 ???
More PO4 ? Currently dosing 2.62 ppm already.


Cheers
CHOK[/quote]

[PeterGwee]

You doing CO2 24/7? Don't do that with the CO2 incremental method.

KH is fine as long as it does not move around.

CO2 injection starts 2 hrs before lighting and 30 mins before light off. Lighting starting from 1pm to 11pm.

How much light do you have over the tank? No traces except iron? Drop the seachem iron and get the regular flourish instead. Stop the Mg dosage as well..you don't need it.

2 x 150w MH . Ok, shall get the flourish . How much to dose flourish after WC for 6x2x2 tank (estimated 400L + ).

Weekly 50% water changes should be fine. Keep harassing the algae and give what the plants want.
As above..how much light over the setup in wpg? Consider adding abit more CO2 and PO4.

More CO2 ? PH 6.2 and dKH of 4 => 70+ ppm of CO2 ???
More PO4 ? Currently dosing 2.62 ppm already.


Cheers
CHOK

Try 30ml of flourish 2x a week along with other nutrients.

Forget about increasing the CO2 and PO4. Should be fine for now with GD. Do a large water change of 80-90% and wipe carefully the affected front glass with paper towel after the tank is drained and toss it. Refill the tank and dose back the nutrients. Do the same thing 2-3 days later if the zoopores of the greendust comes back. You should be able to remove it totally after several cleanings. If you have a UV sterilizer, you can run it after the cleaning to zap any pores in the water column and prevent it from reproducing.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[Plantbrain]

When you took that measurement for CO2, measure it durin gthe first 1-2 hours and then the last 1-2 hours and if possible during the midday.

Compare the CO2 levels.
Also turn off any electrical equipment if you use a pH probe, this will give you a false positive on the pH(lowering from what it really is)

If you are adding PO4/good CO2/NO3, traces etc, then all the BBA should be doing is sitting there and not growing.

So go in and remove all you can manually, remove all equipment that has any and bleach and return to the tank.

If it's no longer growing, you have any algae beat.
Then it's worth going in and pruning it all away.

Good conditions in the future will prevent it's return.

Algae will have a harder time when there is much less of it present and more algae free plant leaves.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[neon]

Forget about increasing the CO2 and PO4. Should be fine for now with GD. Do a large water change of 80-90% and wipe carefully the affected front glass with paper towel after the tank is drained and toss it. Refill the tank and dose back the nutrients. Do the same thing 2-3 days later if the zoopores of the greendust comes back. You should be able to remove it totally after several cleanings. If you have a UV sterilizer, you can run it after the cleaning to zap any pores in the water column and prevent it from reproducing.

I normally do the water change late at night around 10:30pm (30 mins before the light out, so less disruption to the plants) first by cleaning the front glass with the strong magnetic cleaner, subsequently use credit card to scrap off the bottom green spot, then water change 50%. I don't dose nutrient immediately because I need to run the UV overnight until next morning 6:30am. Then dose all NO3, PO4, K, and trace back in the early morning before the light on. So far I had been doing this for the past 1.5 months. Green spot still come back.

Any reason PH still constant at 6.2 thru the photo period as well as light off ?

Cheers
CHOK
[/quote]

[PeterGwee]

I normally do the water change late at night around 10:30pm (30 mins before the light out, so less disruption to the plants) first by cleaning the front glass with the strong magnetic cleaner, subsequently use credit card to scrap off the bottom green spot, then water change 50%. I don't dose nutrient immediately because I need to run the UV overnight until next morning 6:30am. Then dose all NO3, PO4, K, and trace back in the early morning before the light on. So far I had been doing this for the past 1.5 months. Green spot still come back.

Wipe the glass only when the tank is drained..that way the zoopores will not float around and have the chance to re-attach. The rest are fine..you do not need to make much changes then.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

I normally do the water change late at night around 10:30pm (30 mins before the light out, so less disruption to the plants) first by cleaning the front glass with the strong magnetic cleaner, subsequently use credit card to scrap off the bottom green spot, then water change 50%. I don't dose nutrient immediately because I need to run the UV overnight until next morning 6:30am. Then dose all NO3, PO4, K, and trace back in the early morning before the light on. So far I had been doing this for the past 1.5 months. Green spot still come back.

Wipe the glass only when the tank is drained..that way the zoopores will not float around and have the chance to re-attach. The rest are fine..you do not need to make much changes then.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Peter:

on Monday , added 10 long stalks of crypt balansae, other crypts, and lot of dwarf hair grass. Done 80% WC as suggested and wiped glass with tissues. Dose nutrient back on Tues early morning. Tues 6pm , I did a PH test 6.6-6.7 (6 hrs since lights on and CO2 injection started 2 hrs before light on), dKH 4 . CO2 => 35 ppm. As mentioned before, before WC PH is around 6.2, dKH 4 , CO => 70+ppm. Is the cool water of 25 deg C can retain the CO2 much better even 7-9hrs after CO2 switch off and light off ? After WC , most of the CO2 are lost and have to restart the blending of CO2 again. It seems the optimum of CO2 will reach after 2 days. During low PH (6.2) I noticed the plants pearl lot more than PH 6.6-6.7.

Have you also noticed that during water discharge out (WC) , the water level decreases, the light penetration is stronger and suddenly many plants start to pearl even more. I am having 2x150w MH, that should not have issue with the light penetration.

With these swing of PH 6.2 to 6.6-6.7 after WC, am I causing any inconsistency in CO2 PPM, will the BBA come again ? I start to notice 1-2 BBA look alike on the gravel . I pick them out and throw away. Any suggestion to keep the BBA at bay.

BTW, now any plant introduced to my tank now are dipped thru chlorox bleach and soaked with clean water over night before planted into my tank.

Cheers
CHOK

[neon]

Hi PeterGwee & other forumers :

Few weeks after resetting my tank, green spot started showing on the plants too (barteri nana, java fern, DW). Occassionally can spot some BBA and removed them immediately.

I think my CO2 is steady after change to two rainbars with external reactor.
PH 6.2 during the whole lighting period. 10hrs after lighting/CO2 shut off PH stay around 6.3. dKH around 5.5.

WC every 3 days (25-30%), dosing NO3 10ppm, PO4 2.6ppm, K 15ppm, Seachem trace 30ml. 6 days ago did 80% WC as Peter recommendation to fight the green spot on glass and wiped with tissue. Notice when 80% WC, my PH increase from the stable 6.2-6.3 to 6.6-6.7 for 2 days before it dropped down to 6.2-6.3 range.

What should do now with those leaves with green spot ? What else is lack of ?

My lighting 2 x 150W MH (reduced from 3 x 150 w 5 months ago) and is hanged ~ 2 ft above the water surface . My tank dimensionis 6x2x2. lighting daily from 1pm to 11pm (10hrs).



Thanks in advance.

Cheers
CHOK

[ciscube]

hi,

sorry to bring up this thread again.

I just wish to confirm BBA will not caused by wrong or inadequate dosing of fertilisers. It is caused only by not enough of CO2, poor circulation of CO2, and other CO2 stuff.

Am I correct?

[PeterGwee]

hi,

sorry to bring up this thread again.

I just wish to confirm BBA will not caused by wrong or inadequate dosing of fertilisers. It is caused only by not enough of CO2, poor circulation of CO2, and other CO2 stuff.

Am I correct?

A stunted plant caused by poor nutrients will make a good substrate for all forms of algae..not just BBA. Generally, you could say that BBA is caused by poor CO2.

Regards
Peter Gwee