Singapore Long Kang Fish, Wild Guppies/Endlers.

[sixhunter]

Actually, wikipedia has a much, much better explanation and example of this "matrix" or properly known as the Punnett Square.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

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thanks so much for your sharing, will go read up abit more. Interesting little fishes hehe

[vannel]

No problem bro.. I hope my info is accurate and will help you towards designing your own strain in future.

Keeping guppies or endlers is not too hard, but, designing your own strain requires a lot of know-how and dedication. Not to mention the tanks needed for line breeding a single strain!

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[sixhunter]

No problem bro.. I hope my info is accurate and will help you towards designing your own strain in future.

Keeping guppies or endlers is not too hard, but, designing your own strain requires a lot of know-how and dedication. Not to mention the tanks needed for line breeding a single strain!

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yes i agree with that part, the need for space/tanks haha. Recently i just started setting up a bunch of those plastic tanks with simple air sponge filters. Keeping about 8 pieces and below for each tank. they are doing alright and breeding steadily now. Probably would like to slowly learn how to line/selective breed for certain traits i fancy.

[Bern C]

Hmm.. Genetics is a long topic and I'm no guru, so correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone.

When you breed 2 guppies, the offspring takes a single gene from each parent (its way more complex than just a gene, but to simplify the explanation..). So then, what happens is you have a matrix of possibilities..

Parent 1: Ab (assuming A is dominant gene, b is recessive gene)
Parent 2: Ab

Offspring Matrix:
25% - AA (looks same as parents)
50% - Ab (looks same as parents)
25% - bb (shows recessive trait)

This matrix is because a gene is taken from each parent.. The 50% is due to Ab being the same as bA (hence, 25% + 25%).

From then on, if the recessive trait is what you are after, the next filial generation (P2) will always give you recessive phenotypes because:

Parent 1: bb
Parent 2: bb

Offspring Matrix:
100% - bb

Because both genes from both parents are recessive.

So to answer your question, if it were just simple genetics and only 1 gene determined the specific phenotype of the snail's colour, then, you would get 100% red snails if you bred 2 red snails together.

Of course, if it wasn't just a simple matrix (like some super genes that always override, and some that actually depend on other genes, or some genes that are either X-linked or X-linked, etc), you'd be expecting different results.

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I failed to mention that uppercase means the gene is dominant. Lowercase means recessive.

Therefore, gene A will always be exhibited regardless of the other gene (ie AA or Ab or bA). Recessive genes are the interesting ones. The only way for a recessive trait (for example, albino) to be exhibited is when both inherited genes are recessive (bb). It does not mean its dominant.

To be clear, if you want AA, then the only way to be sure is to use parents that are both AA. However, if its just the phenotype, you would also be fine using AA x Ab/bA since a dominant A gene will definitely be inherited from the 1st parent.

To create a new strain from 2 different ones, you'll need to know what overrides what. Many genes can coexist because they are not paired on the same "location" on the DNA. Each kind of gene describes a different feature of the fish. Only when they clash on the same level will dominance come into play. Example, a gene that is for base colour is not more dominant than a gene that is for tail shape.

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^_^ Thanks for your valuable explanation. I think I have found my answer on AdrainHD site and I was also confused with N class and wild endlers. I just realize that N class only means pure or real endlers. N class doesn't tell if the strain comes from the wild or not.

Here's the site: http://www.swampriveraquatics.com/index.html
"All The Wild Stock Endlers Livebearer Strains (Poecilia Wingei) in These pics have been Developed & introduced to the hobby by ( AdrianHD ) from Wild collected Specimens.These strains are the result of Careful Selection, Patience and knowledge of Genetics in regards to Wild Endlers.These strains produce alike offspring with slight variations of same wild type. I Regularly Add New Fresh blood from Specific Wild populations that I maintain. By adding this Fresh New blood , Vigor, Fertility and the Vibrant coloration Endlers livebearer are known for are Enhance to that of wild fish."

This leads me to think that actually it might be possible to turn a hybrid back to "pure" if one have the knowledge of identify the traits between guppy and endler, and also genectics. By keep adding the traits of endlers into the hybrid gene pool and culling the offspring with guppy traits. But it will take many generation. @_@ So not really worth doing it as even succeeded, it might still contain a small % of guppy gene but I don't anybody can tell from their appearance.

[vannel]

Yes, that's right. Because you'll really never know if a Guppy gene is recessive because it isn't exhibited. So then, it might look exactly like a wild or pure endler, but its full of recessive Guppy genes.

I would probably even go so far as to say its statistically impossible.

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[Bern C]

Yes, that's right. Because you'll really never know if a Guppy gene is recessive because it isn't exhibited. So then, it might look exactly like a wild or pure endler, but its full of recessive Guppy genes.

I would probably even go so far as to say its statistically impossible.

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OIC... The pool of guppy gene won't get diluted by the endlers gene??

BTW how to maintain a new strain of guppies?? Any way to prevent the undesired recessive traits from appearing in the offspring?? Let say I just created a new strain, so I just keep inbreed them?? @____@

[Urban Aquaria]

OIC... The pool of guppy gene won't get diluted by the endlers gene??

BTW how to maintain a new strain of guppies?? Any way to prevent the undesired recessive traits from appearing in the offspring?? Let say I just created a new strain, so I just keep inbreed them?? @____@

Yeah, line breeding a new strain involves many many generations of culling, selecting and inbreeding to enhance selected traits... the constant inbreeding makes each generation become less and less hardy with higher chances of deformities and lower immune systems. Thats why those heavily line bred variants look nice, but tend to be much more difficult to keep.

[vannel]

Line breeding is alot of dedication. I think I remember the minimum for each strain is recommended to be around 6 tanks.

It should be clear that line breeding is NOT inbreeding. Do Google on the topic for a better explanation and the difference. In short, however, line breeding is actually keeping parallel lines of the same strain (sibling F1 generation from the same P0) and occasionally crossing the 2 lines against each other when needed. What this hopes to achieve is a consistent ancestral geneotype that does not suffer from overly enforced inbreeding, leading to deformities, lower fry survivability, undesirable head to body ratio, etc. Why this works is because, after a few filial generations of inbreeding within the line, you'll start noticing what's known as inbreeding depression that can be easily mitigated through even minor genetic differences (minor, so that we retain most of the desired genotype.. that's your parallel line).

So then, from your original 2 specimens:
P0 -> F1a + F1b

And you would expect to need to inbreed within each F1 (a and b) line so that they never cross until absolutely needed (depending on strains, most people agree around 4-5 filial generations before crossing a pair).. Meaning:
F5a x F5b -> F6a + F6b

Which would then diversify the gene pool ever so slightly to reduce or prevent inbreeding depression.

So, imagine you have 2 tanks for 2 adult pairs + 2 tanks for grow outs for each line + 2 more for fry. So then, 6 tanks, excluding if you have a big one for culls as a community tank, etc..

I hope your interest is not in recessive type genes, because those probably require more tanks. Even worse, snakeskin strains, for example, where the snakeskin gene is Y-linked and only passes from father to son. Well, you get the idea now I hope.

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[Bern C]

Yeah, line breeding a new strain involves many many generations of culling, selecting and inbreeding to enhance selected traits... the constant inbreeding makes each generation become less and less hardy with higher chances of deformities and lower immune systems. Thats why those heavily line bred variants look nice, but tend to be much more difficult to keep.

Line breeding is alot of dedication. I think I remember the minimum for each strain is recommended to be around 6 tanks.

It should be clear that line breeding is NOT inbreeding. Do Google on the topic for a better explanation and the difference. In short, however, line breeding is actually keeping parallel lines of the same strain (sibling F1 generation from the same P0) and occasionally crossing the 2 lines against each other when needed. What this hopes to achieve is a consistent ancestral geneotype that does not suffer from overly enforced inbreeding, leading to deformities, lower fry survivability, undesirable head to body ratio, etc. Why this works is because, after a few filial generations of inbreeding within the line, you'll start noticing what's known as inbreeding depression that can be easily mitigated through even minor genetic differences (minor, so that we retain most of the desired genotype.. that's your parallel line).

So then, from your original 2 specimens:
P0 -> F1a + F1b

And you would expect to need to inbreed within each F1 (a and b) line so that they never cross until absolutely needed (depending on strains, most people agree around 4-5 filial generations before crossing a pair).. Meaning:
F5a x F5b -> F6a + F6b

Which would then diversify the gene pool ever so slightly to reduce or prevent inbreeding depression.

So, imagine you have 2 tanks for 2 adult pairs + 2 tanks for grow outs for each line + 2 more for fry. So then, 6 tanks, excluding if you have a big one for culls as a community tank, etc..

I hope your interest is not in recessive type genes, because those probably require more tanks. Even worse, snakeskin strains, for example, where the snakeskin gene is Y-linked and only passes from father to son. Well, you get the idea now I hope.

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Many many thanks for shifus UA & Vannel explanation. Genetics and breeding are very interesting. ^_^ That is partially why AdrainHD will widen the genes pool by keep adding new blood/gene into the gene pool??
How about trio linebreeding??

So the snakeskin gene is Y-linked. So what is the % of offsprings will exhibit the Y-linked traits? Let say we have an affected father, will all the male offsprings exhibit the Y-linked traits?? Or 50% of the males will be recessive carrier and 25% will exhibit the Y-linked traits?

[vannel]

Indeed, you could easily expand your guppy's gene pool with externally sourced fish. This, however, is a very risky move as you are unsure of the lineage of the fish and it could introduce alot of unwanted traits. Keeping guppies is all about lineage and you surely wouldn't want to taint years and years of line breeding with another fish bought from other breeders (unless there's something you want from it specifically).


This was taken off guppychicago.org..

SNAKESKIN, by definition, is any male guppy that has an unbroken rosetta pattern covering at least 60% of the body.* Females show no snakeskin pattern.* The gene for the snakeskin trait can be on the y-chromosome (passed from father to sons) or on the x-chromosome (passed from mother to sons).* The only way to determine where the gene lies is to outcross to a non-snakeskin strain and check the f-1 males for the pattern.

So there. I only mentioned Y-linked SS gene but there's also an X-linked SS gene. Some half-black genes are also only passed from 1 parent only.

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[Bern C]

OIC.. I was thinking like maybe can try crossing with the strain that is closely resemble the new strain, like the strain used to create the new strain. More like a partial reset and start selective breeding again. Maybe can do this like quite a few generation later?

@_@ It sounds like autosomal or non-sex linked?? I thought a gene can only be X or Y linked?? If it can be both way, then it's impossible to tell if it's X or Y linked if the male has that gene in both X & Y chromosome. Unless the gene in Y chromosome is a dominant gene, then we able to tell it's a Y linked gene as all the male offspring will have that trait. Then for the female, maybe can apply the X linked theory to find which females have the dominant genes? Like what is mentioned by outcrossing all the female to a non-related strain??

Unless Y-linked and X-linked genes are 2 different genes that are not related?? @___@ Confused.

[vannel]

Actually, your last statement is right.

Most genes exist on both chromosomes (or rather, can exist). For example, a gene that determines the base colour of the fish will affect both males and females. However, the snakeskin gene has 2 variants according to some. 1 is a Y-linked snakeskin gene (which I believe is more common), and another is X-linked (I'm not certain I've seen these).

In any case, I couldn't tell you if the data is accurate. The best thing to do is to trial and error some combinations till you understand your own strain. If the offspring turns out as expected, then good. Else, you've got a more complicated gene pool than you expected.

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[Bern C]

OIC... Yeah... If the 2 sex linked variants are related ie. like allele where they are able to cancel/dominate each other, then I really unable to comprehend the logic behind it. The autosomal chromosome is easy to understand as it's not sex linked so the traits gene can be found in both parents. But for sex linked, the male will show the traits of both mother and father as male is make up of X & Y chromosomes, so if a gene/allele can be on X & Y chromosomes, it's no different from autosomal and the X-linked theory won't works on it so how are they able to know if the gene is X-linked or Y-linked or both? @__@?

I have tried to make a X-linked & Y linked recessive snakeskin chart, the genotype for father & mother is X(s)Y(s) & X(S)X(s). The father can only pass the Y chromosome to the male so all the male offspring must have a small "s". On the F1(1st gen), I will have 4 types of combination, X(S)Y(s), X(s)Y(s), X(s)X(S),X(s)X(s). 1 male & 1 female will be affected by snakeskin trait. Let assume that female guppy lack of color pigmentation so can't show the snakeskin patterns. As I expended the chart by mating the offspring to some affected and some carriers to created the F2, F3 & F4. Before creating F4, I realized that the X-linked & Y linked recessive can end up able to fit into autosomal dominant rule. After I expend 1 more generation then I concluded that the it's a X-linked & Y-linked recessive and also autosomal recessive. This is the part that confused me, if I don't tell anyone that the chart is made of X-linked & Y-linked recessive genotype, can anyone able to analyze and find out??

Here's the rules of X-linked & Y-linked.
Y-linked: Affected sons always have affected father as the father can only give the Y chomosome copy to its son.
X-linked recessive: Mostly affect the male as male only has a copy of X chromosomes so it doesn't have a counter copy. Female has 2 copies of X chromosome, 1 from father 1 from mother. So affected father will always give birth to carrier or affected daughter.
X-linked dominant: All affected offspring will have affected parent. Affected father will always give birth to affected daughter as male can only pass its copy of X chromosome to its daughter.

Yeah... I agree with you, best to do a trial and error to create a full chart to find out the genotypes.

[vannel]

Looks like you've really done alot of homework on the topic..! What you've analyzed seems to be right, but we are assuming that the gene is singular and not affected by other co-dominant or supergenes. It could also be that the gene(s) are simply not meant to be described using the punnett square.

You would need many generations to figure out recessive genes, and only true out-breeding to a strain that you are absolutely sure of and observing their F1 and F2..

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[Bern C]

XD I got hooked by guppy genotypes. Yeah... maybe snakeskin traits can be X-linked too, as I found some source about it crossing to Y chromosome. Will do more reading on research about it and let you the answer.

Yeah... for recessive can only confirmed when you found that a offspring doesn't have affected parents. If a gene can be X or Y linked, then it will be more difficult to find.. I still researching about crossing of gene from X to Y. @_@

Btw.. I don't really understand about supergene, can you explain more? Thanks~

[tetrakid]

@BernC,
Wa you discuss genetic stuff until so cheem, making me read until so blur, lol.

[Bern C]

@BernC,
Wa you discuss genetic stuff until so cheem, making me read until so blur, lol.

Cos what I said might be wrong and confusing... Still learning about guppy gene. Actually guppy gene kinda interesting.. I found a video on a presentation of guppy genetics but too bad it's only soundless slides.



I have look into the gene crossover between X & Y chromosomes. Actually it's not as complicated as I thought. It got nothing to do with dominant or recessive as I think there's no similar gene/aellel that can dominate it. The snakeskin body gene can just crossover from X chromosome to Y and the males offspring will have snakeskin traits. I think there's chances that it can also revert back to X-linked.

[fireblade]

super confused now...

[Bern C]

super confused now...

Heya shifu fireblade~ Mind sharing your knowledge with us?

Found some source about others guppy traits. http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.2108/zsj.16.893

[Guppendler]

In reality I don't think it is really that confusing.

I'd line bred snakeskin endler/guppy hybrid staring with double sword phenotypes and I ended up with a nice top swords eventually through selective breeding. Please see my progress from left to right

snakeskin doublesword.jpgTop Sword Snakeskin 1.jpgTop sword snakeskins.jpg

While the snakeskin gene is mostly Y-linked I was really hoping to have crossover to X chromosome and so far I do not come across any. If a crossover event do happen to X chromosome, I would know as the females used in this line are all colorless plain endler females. There will be tell tale traits on the females like some faint snakeskin pattern on the claudal/dorsal fins or even on the body.

The top sword trait is suspected to be primarily Y-linked as I found so far. Males with better top swords are selectively bred till a nice long single upper swords is gotten.