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Thread: To catch or not?

  1. #1
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    To catch or not?

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    A recent, lively thread on another forum has been 'exploring' this issue, with a good number of points from all parts of the spectrum. It might be good for folks here to think about the ethics and issues involved in 'collection' too. Please share your thoughts.....

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    I admit I went catching fishes in the wild.

    Whilst we pause to review our actions. Do keep in mind that a lot of commercial activities/collection hinders our conservation efforts too.

    I shall go and finish changing water and come back on this.

    Cheers,
    I have dwarf cichlids in my tanks! Do you?

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    see the problem with this people is that they treat the whole place like a recreation park, bring a whole bunch of people to trample around the place and any how scoop. and then they go and tell all their friends.

    there are a few guys I have come to notice, to not share info with them. bad_boyz is one (from petfrd) and lucas is another (can't remember from where).

    but I don't think there are guppies over at the peat swamp side right?
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Its just another one of those sad excuse

    I know where the pond is located and if I have kids.. It wouldn't be a place I want my family members to trek to.

    My POV is,

    leave our freaking nature reserves alone!!!.

    whether it is just a cheap thrill to these people or they can't afford to buy fishes from LFS or they simply can't leave something that 'pristine' alone (Something like "I see, I conquer")

    Also as parents, they should set a better example for their children *tsk tsk*
    In my many trips to Macritchie(Rifle range link) I do encounter families with childrens picnicing along the streams. While the adults are chatting away, the kids are catching our wild fishes and once in a while, u hear the dad calling out at his children.... " There got a big one".. quite sad

    just my 2cts

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    hi,

    but the fancy guppies ard the farm areas are escapees from the farm. so do u guys think its ok (or not ok) to net them from the drains ? what about that big fat LH in a pond/ stream/ river where know there are alot of native fishes ?

    of course, i also object to messing around in our protected reservoirs and parks.

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    hi Kenny,

    As i mentioned on that forum, i don't see any problem with people fishing in the drains, longkangs, rivers, shores etc.. outside the nature reserves/Sungei Buloh.... in these waters, there are both several native and introduced species... even fishing in the main reservoir (although I think only angling using non-live bait is allowed) isn't really a big issue, as the impact is still sustainable.

    What we are concerned with are the true native habitats like those in Nee Soon Swamp and the primary forests between MacRitchie and Pierce/Seletar reservoirs, where the streams still harbour countless rare animals and plants. I know sometimes one can find alien fishes there too, and here I would suggest that one informs the NParks to get their ranger patrol (they do have people and volunteers who go and patrol regularly!) to remove e.g. a luohan in a forest pond.

    Sadly, people like that guy who showed pictures of his big outing fail to see that their actions are both irresponsible (he now tries to suggest that he only catches guppies, when the group by the forest pond, where no guppies can be found, clearly has nets) and encourages other people to follow his example.

    Of course, there are also many other vital tasks, e.g. reducing pollution, litter, etc... some guys on that forum mentioned that if I am really serious about conservation, I should and appeal to the government (which I have also been doing) instead of preaching to the forum. But the environment's fate still lies ultimately on the individual and his own actions. By giving the excuse that people like me shouldn't bother to point out (on that forum) the harm caused these fishing outings simply because there are bigger problems elsewhere, these people are simply trying to worm their way out of responsibility.

    You can get a primer on local fishlife (both native and introduced) on this site:
    http://habitatnews.nus.edu.sg/guideb...h/fishlist.htm

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    Don't get me started on conservation in Singapore and the mentality of some citizens . I am truly saddened...and dissapointed... perhaps early next week i would say something if this thread is still up .

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    With those photos and all, can I say they can get themselves into alot of trouble? I was trekking there before too and chanced across a volunteer warden who will not hesitate to put you into alot of trouble with the authority if you even dare pick on a butterfly or tiny weed, not to say a net full of fishes. Do think of the trouble you will get yourself into before doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffrey
    With those photos and all, can I say they can get themselves into alot of trouble? I was trekking there before too and chanced across a volunteer warden who will not hesitate to put you into alot of trouble with the authority if you even dare pick on a butterfly or tiny weed, not to say a net full of fishes. Do think of the trouble you will get yourself into before doing it.
    next time you see those wardens ask for their email and cell phone numbers. better still invite them to AQ
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    well, after my letter to Today was published, it seems those guys there are working themselves into a froth (see the buy/sell thread on Endler's guppies). And they still don't understand that I don't see any problem with fishing in the longkangs, drains, rivers.... only that the nature reserve streams should be left alone, because of their biodiversity value. Well, some people are just goondus.... and to think that I thought better of some of them before...

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    post some links, I don't bother to go over there unless at the convenience of a click
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    point this thread to them.. maybe it will be clearer to them

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    Simon, it doesn't work.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    mmm… that julian, is he pulling their legs?
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    plus I don't understand why people are buying endler's in pairs.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    My detailed thoughts, extracted from my blog, on the matter, including the said gentleman's belated caveats:

    Some have queried why I made such a big fuss about this happy group of friends. It suffices to say for now, that one wonders why they would make 30-40 minute trek to reach this pond deep in the forest reserves and claim that they were catching mere guppies. I certainly don't see anything wrong with catching guppies or other fish in the canals, drains, longkangs, shores, rivers and even reservoir fringes, but unfortunately the pond depicted here is was a veritable treasure trove of more than a dozen species of native fish (no guppies or luohans) and plants which have vanished from almost all other parts of the island.

    The individual responsible for guiding this group assumes a stance of personal evasiveness while attempting to divert the issue to non-relevant topics and the usual ad hominems. One can perhaps excuse sheer ignorance, but this person, to his credit, clearly demonstrates a good basic knowledge of biodiversity, ecology and conservation. Sadly, he and his friends seem unable to transcend their native impulses and think beyond their own selfish desires. Gentle words have failed to work with these people and thus, budak laments that he had to resort to more officious channels that may see such sites fenced off from all, be it those who seek to poach or those who merely wish to immortalise nature's breath-taking diversity in pictures.

    For those too lazy (no, I don't blame you, it's really tiresome) to read the actual thread (or should it be deleted), my thoroughly biased summary of its main themes is provided below:

    In the forum where he plys his trade, the individual proudly proclaims that the pond is where "you can find the longkang guppys, and the wild bettas, and the wild rasboras, wild snakeheads...." and sniggers that "I never catch hor. Just see see only... sorry....cant say the same thing about the children...they kids only... hehe." His buddies are thus encouraged, and holler for more information about the locale, displaying not a mite of concern that such habitats would be depleted by their wanton desires. Oh, and I forgot! I should have sent to the papers the picture on the discussion thread showing his three happy boys poking and twirling a poor juvenile python with a stick. That would have gotten the SPCA involved....

    Despite early efforts to stress that fishing outside the reserves isn't an issue at all (a point which most simply fail to get, despite clarifications ad nauseum ad infinitum – although the thread starter happily captures the message), budak's entry into the fray apparently hits some raw nerves, with an immediate retort on budak's motives and self-regard. While I am happy to say I don't suffer from an inferiority complex (except in the presence of mrs budak), my poor mind does struggle immensely to grasp the logic of these people who claim that catching wild fish so that the animals "will live happily and maybe reproduce in their tanks" is a lesser evil to catching fish that will perish in the hands of an ignorant child. One shouldn't be surprised, or angered, to see such attitudes amongst people who know little about ecology, but coming from the mouths of aquarists who clearly know about natural selection, population dynamics and biodiversity concerns, it becomes just another sorry excuse.

    Charges of hypocrisy, or its cousin, inconsistency, are the next bullets. If I am serious about the issue, says one forumer, I would "write to the forum in the papers or the national parks board and ask them to step up patrolling the area, instead of making so much noise down here." The fellow's actually got a point, which is exactly why I did what I did. Unfortunately his remarks beggars the reasonable question of why the very people who boast of their fishing sessions, sorry family outings, should not be confronted directly (and with polite firmness I might add), unless these individuals see themselves as above criticism or scrutiny? As one of them protested, "this is not the forum for you to write what you think...." I must constantly remind myself that a good many people here are simply not used to being told off, even online; in their world of face-saving euphemisms and papered truths, harmonious camaraderie (they call this brudderhood) supplants the need for principles that go beyond the self-defensive rules of narrow communities. What would Orwell make of this oriental groupthink?

    Poor budak then bears the brunt of caustic flames that seek to deny one the right to speak because one is a 'newbie', has ulterior motives or simply because I don't write in Singlish. Personal attacks, however, pail beyond the really scary rejoinder of "if the biodiversity is seriously threaten as you claimed, the authorities WILL be doing something about it." I'd never thought individual apathy in Singapore has risen to the level where responsibility for tackling every ill is heaped on the state's shoulders. But seriously, would he really want the authorities to be doing something about citizens exercising their freedom to poach and trample on endangered reserves? Wouldn't a rude little budak be much more preferable to the mighty hand of law?

    The culprit himself finally reappears with a grand denial of guilt, repainting the scene as a harmless family outing. I suppose his version of a picnic features an abundance of fish nets (including one shown about to be dipped into the water) and a molested python... Stock diversions (what has Bukit Timah hill walkers got to do with our little exchange?) and ad hominems aside ("How do we know if he is not out to bait someone here and start a %$$% flame war????"), the man shows himself to be admirably well-versed in local conservation issues, citing forest fellings, the reclamation of swamps and mangroves and the failure of his teachers to instill in him an ecological conscience as reasons why he is not about to yield an inch of moral high ground. But having maintained his innocence, he kindly insists that only guppies were caught, an observation that does not gel with my repeated sightings (as well as that of countless nature enthusiasts and researchers) of nothing but rare, native wildlife in the pond and its surrounding streams. Of course, it's not impossible that some cretin introduced guppies into the forest streams at some point, but even assuming the livebearers survived the acidic waters and voracious snakeheads, it's one man's claim against his own earlier words that suggest otherwise. And besides, if one is as serious as he is in restoring the natural ecological state, park rangers and managers can be roped in for an official sweep of unwanted aliens.

    At this point, our fisherman laudably reveals lofty ideals that budak cannot but praise. "The cause is best served by education... educating the people, discussing the issue, and not by accusing someone of commiting ecological vandalism." I certainly believe in the need for education and discussion, but unfortunately this guy's education has certainly made him a master of weaselry and avoidance of responsibility. "Say whatever you want, but don't bring my wilful actions to attention," he says in effect.

    A further accusation, or insinuation rather, highlights the catching of fish in Malaysia. I can't profess to be inexpert in that, having dwelled across the straits in my early years. But here, a similar defence is applicable. There is no legal or moral, much less personal, justification for encroaching designated biodiversity hotspots (e.g. Endau Rompin park and Tasik Bera) for private collection outings. A country of Malaysia's size and relative wealth of ecosystems, however, is far better able to withstand the effects of individual or small groups of aquarists who net specimens mainly at the fringes of extensive habitats, such as streams by the roadside or a local lake, compared to the few fragile hectares of peat swamp that cling to Singapore's geological heartland. Some conservationists abhor all instances of non-academic collecting; I suffer a more distressing love-hate affair that sees the private discovery of species and the opportunity for both local and foreign enthusiasts to know and enjoy the living treasures that dwell in these lands as a vital spur for biodiversity awareness (and hopefully activism), and yet worry that an excess of affection for a prized creature would result in its overcollection and extinction.

    Mr Guppy offers thereafter yet another version of his weekend outing. Now, he says that "of course there are no guppies in the... swamp..... I did not say that I caught guppys in the fresh water swamp itself..... you are not there with me... so dont try to second guess what I did or did not do..... and whether it is right or wrong, I'll judge that for myself... using my own values and beliefs.... if you really want to make a differnce... dont come in here to beach..." Reading such statements, I am certainly glad I have not encountered him on the roads or in business transactions; it's pretty unassuring to hear that there are folks around who play by their own rules, without reference to how their actions affect the lives or thoughts of others. And despite a later, not uncredible attempt at clarifying his position, one wonders why he did not bother to express such caveats in the first place, when his bevy of fans were begging for nuggets of information that would lead them to the same pretty pond. So forgive me for beaching....
    Last edited by budak; 9th Apr 2005 at 10:45.

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    Some further thoughts: one could say short of actually having a picture of these people with a bag of fish, it's not possible to prove conclusively that poaching took place. But I really wonder, why should lucasrock respond to a thread query on 'where to catch longkang guppies' by posting pictures of his pond outing and talking about the fishes (bettas, rasboras...) one can find there? And leaving aside his changing accounts, doesn't he at least deserve a reprimand for his role in goading on other forumers, who might not share his moral scruples, to look for the place? And what is most disappointing is that he and his group of buddies are now trying to provoke a response in another thread by talking about the fishes they would catch and release into the wild. It seems they much prefer to try to taunt me rather than assume a responsible stance in their forum by not advocating animal release. These people know better, and yet fail to speak up against environmental ignorance and irresponsibility. It seems they much prefer to entertain their petty hates above any principles whatsoever.

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    isn't releasing non-native fishes into the nature reserves also prohibited?
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Actually no point la. Those people there had "Wars" with people from many forum already. The way they talk is like that. No point playing a piano to a bull (dui niu tan qing). They won't understand. And their very provocative in their languages. I think we should just drop it over at that forum. Since the public (and hopefully the Authorities) are being notified, I think its up to the public to decide what is good for their own motherland's native creatures.

    No point arguing with those people. They will rebuke you in anyway they can. Even if they harbour the intentions, they will not admit. So just let it be.

    Cheers
    Lyon
    Lyon © I would rather walk a thousand leagues then to see your ugly face

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