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Thread: Panda cory death and other questions

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    Panda cory death and other questions

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    Hi all

    First I have to admit that my tank is not yet fully cycled. Adding pandas this early was probably a big mistake. With that out of the way, I would like some advice on the following.

    Tank so far running with fish for two weeks, before that ran with plants only for about 1 week. Current residents are 10 celestial pearl danio (aka galaxy rasbora) from Seaview and 5 pandas. Manage to keep the CPDs alive for two weeks, they look like they are doing well also, colours are beautiful and they are braver than the first week I had them. First week, never see them eat at all. Recently saw them eating the Hikari micro pellets and instant BBS. Still very shy but read that that's normal for them.

    Last weekend I bought 6 pandas, today morning notice that 1 dead already. The dead one, I noticed on Friday evening that there was this fungal infection on the fin that looks like cotton wool. Saturday I went to buy Paraguard. Also noticed on Saturday after I bought the meds that the other pandas seem to have ich spots. So i'll be dosing the tank with the Paraguard for 3 weeks as advised by Seachem to get rid of the ich.

    I'm not sure if the other pandas will survive, especially when the tank not yet fully cycled. I change about 50% water daily, in the evenings after I get home from work. API master test kit always show ammonia 0.25ppm whenever I test. Not 0 lah but I guess since it also tests for ammonium which I read is not so harmful, the free ammonia levels should be safe.

    Since the CPDs still going strong, I'm not sure if the pandas got sick because of my lousy fishkeeping skills or if I bought weak stock or if pandas are just not as hardy as CPDs. In any case, I am now more concerned for the CPDs as I still cannot see any symptoms on them. At least the pandas I can see the spots so I am more prepared if I really lose them. Does anyone know how long will it take for other fish to show symptoms? Is it as long as they are healthy and not stressed out, they won't be affected, even if the water got ich? I read that garlic guard will help to boost immune system and improve appetite, should I get that too? I want to boost their health now because in the next few weeks I want to redo my tank and get rid of the substrate cos now the substrate very difficult to clean, uneaten food always falls in between the gaps.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Hi chickennublet,

    I am by no means an expert on this topic but will share what experience i gathered from the past few years.

    1. Panda Cory - they are consider less hardy than most cory, at least in my opinion, my 4 panda cory died within a span of 1 year whereas my sterbai and albino cory are still surviving till this date. As for the fungal infection and ich, the not fully cycled tank may play a part in them, stressing them and getting sick. But i think you might just had a sick cory within the 6 that you bought. Just quarantine all the surviving cory to a temporary tank, if possible, to treat them of the fungal infection and ich and to lower possibility of spreading the sickness to the CPD. Use air pump to aerate the hospital/quarantine tank and do regular weekly water change should suffice (no guarantee though, cause i did it for my cardinal tetras back when i just started keeping fishes and it works). Follow closely to the recommended dosage and frequency and your cory will be better soon.

    2. Celestial Pearl Danio - they are quite hardy fishes so they might have adapt to the environment of your tank, thats why you dont see any symptom on them. Continue with your regular water change regime and try not to add more new fishes into your tank until you have fully cycle your tank and you shall be fine.

    3. Substrate - cause you didnt indicate what substrate you are using, and you are having plants, so i'm guess you are using soil substrate or pebble/sand substrate. I will suggest to reduce your feeding first if you are having uneaten food falling into gaps. No need to overfeed your fishes as they can usually last for about 1 week without food, just do smaller feeding in more frequency if you really worry your fishes go hungry.

    So far i had redo my tank thrice and only recently finish redoing my tank for the third time. As i was using soil substrate, what i did is transfer my fishes to another tank and run my existing filter at lower water flow so that the beneficial bacteria can continue to survive. I also fill 50% of the temporary tank with existing tank water and fill the rest with fresh de-chlorinated water. I didnt use garlic guard cause i dont really want to commit money into additional items due to loads of mistakes made during my learning curve period.

    Like what i read by one of the seniors who wrote in the forum - keeping of fish is not a race. There is no prize to rush the process through. There is never lousy fishkeeping skills, only skills we had not mastered in keeping our fishes. Take it slow and steady so that you can learn the fundamental properly and avoid spending too much funds on this hobby. Never be afraid to ask, although answers might be slow sometimes.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by simbk View Post
    Hi chickennublet,

    I am by no means an expert on this topic but will share what experience i gathered from the past few years.

    1. Panda Cory - they are consider less hardy than most cory, at least in my opinion, my 4 panda cory died within a span of 1 year whereas my sterbai and albino cory are still surviving till this date. As for the fungal infection and ich, the not fully cycled tank may play a part in them, stressing them and getting sick. But i think you might just had a sick cory within the 6 that you bought. Just quarantine all the surviving cory to a temporary tank, if possible, to treat them of the fungal infection and ich and to lower possibility of spreading the sickness to the CPD. Use air pump to aerate the hospital/quarantine tank and do regular weekly water change should suffice (no guarantee though, cause i did it for my cardinal tetras back when i just started keeping fishes and it works). Follow closely to the recommended dosage and frequency and your cory will be better soon.

    2. Celestial Pearl Danio - they are quite hardy fishes so they might have adapt to the environment of your tank, thats why you dont see any symptom on them. Continue with your regular water change regime and try not to add more new fishes into your tank until you have fully cycle your tank and you shall be fine.

    3. Substrate - cause you didnt indicate what substrate you are using, and you are having plants, so i'm guess you are using soil substrate or pebble/sand substrate. I will suggest to reduce your feeding first if you are having uneaten food falling into gaps. No need to overfeed your fishes as they can usually last for about 1 week without food, just do smaller feeding in more frequency if you really worry your fishes go hungry.

    So far i had redo my tank thrice and only recently finish redoing my tank for the third time. As i was using soil substrate, what i did is transfer my fishes to another tank and run my existing filter at lower water flow so that the beneficial bacteria can continue to survive. I also fill 50% of the temporary tank with existing tank water and fill the rest with fresh de-chlorinated water. I didnt use garlic guard cause i dont really want to commit money into additional items due to loads of mistakes made during my learning curve period.

    Like what i read by one of the seniors who wrote in the forum - keeping of fish is not a race. There is no prize to rush the process through. There is never lousy fishkeeping skills, only skills we had not mastered in keeping our fishes. Take it slow and steady so that you can learn the fundamental properly and avoid spending too much funds on this hobby. Never be afraid to ask, although answers might be slow sometimes.
    Hi simbk

    Thank you for the encouraging words.

    I read that Ich can't survive without a fish host. Seeing as I ran my tank fishless for two weeks before I added the CPDs, then added the pandas a week later I'm wondering if the pandas I bought might already have been infected at the shop and are only showing symptoms now, possibly due to the poor water quality.

    I haven't got a spare tank or filter, could I use a bucket for that and perhaps add an airstone? I'll probably be doing WCs daily for that anyway. Also I've read that I will probably have to treat the whole tank now that the parasites are in the water. In that case could I leave the pandas in the main tank?

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Oh yes, like what you had read, you need to treat the whole tank to try and eliminate as much ich parasite as possible. I totally forgot about that

    Then just leave your panda inside and treat it with the paraguard. Follow the instructions closely, try to dose slightly lesser if the CPD shows signs of stress.

    Good luck in treating the pand cory of the ich. If there are any more questions, feel free to post here. Am sure there will be some seniors who will be willing to share their advices with you.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Juz buy a small tank from daiso, two bucks only. I normally will treat the infected fish instead of whole tank. Air stone i feel it is a must, to give the sick fish an extra boost.

    You are adding fishes too early. If you are the type that cannot wait, try using seachem stability. I have good results from it. Read the instruction carefully. You have to dose 7 days straight, in between you can add fishes, but I don’t recommend it. I would juz Add Amano shrimps or some hardy shrimps, to prepare for algae bloom. I will juz change 30% of water every 2-3 days.

    Not sure if this is the optimal way, but so far I think it works for me. Got some minimal algae, but manageable and no dead fishes and shrimps.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint888 View Post
    Juz buy a small tank from daiso, two bucks only. I normally will treat the infected fish instead of whole tank. Air stone i feel it is a must, to give the sick fish an extra boost.

    You are adding fishes too early. If you are the type that cannot wait, try using seachem stability. I have good results from it. Read the instruction carefully. You have to dose 7 days straight, in between you can add fishes, but I don’t recommend it. I would juz Add Amano shrimps or some hardy shrimps, to prepare for algae bloom. I will juz change 30% of water every 2-3 days.

    Not sure if this is the optimal way, but so far I think it works for me. Got some minimal algae, but manageable and no dead fishes and shrimps.
    Yeah the guy at seaview sold me this florinbacter product by Brightwell Aquatics which I have been using. Once the Brightwell stuff runs out I'll switch over to Seachem.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    If your tank is not cycled and you added fish, then there is no way to go around that, fish will just die in this setup. However, the stronger ones will live.


    Doing huge 50% water change every day will also result in unstable water parameters, imagine within 2 days 100% water change and the fish has to get used to the new water all over again. In a cycle tank, we usually add fish after we have done water changes, so the fish will have up to another 1 week of stable water temp, chemistry before the next 20-30% water change.


    Stabilty of tank also depends largely on tank size and plant volume. Smaller the tank, the harder it becomes. 50% water change in a nano 10 litre tank has huge impact than a 400 litre tank with 50% water change.


    Cycling period for different setup also differs. I gauge cycling is complete when there is 0 ammonia/nitrite (not nitrate) and absence of diatoms brown algae. My large 3 feet 185L tank took 4 months to complete it's cycle before I added 3 shrimps.


    Not much to advise now. Impulsive fish buying has always been frown upon on most forum. The worst case I have seen is someone buying 50 cardinal tetras and squeeze into his 1 ft tank. Within 2 weeks, massacre. But he was still ignorant of the advise given and went out to buy another 50 tetras and 2 angel fish. In the end $150++ down the drain in few weeks. He gave up fish keeping and was last seen selling his full $500 tank setup on carousel.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    If your tank is not cycled and you added fish, then there is no way to go around that, fish will just die in this setup. However, the stronger ones will live.


    Doing huge 50% water change every day will also result in unstable water parameters, imagine within 2 days 100% water change and the fish has to get used to the new water all over again. In a cycle tank, we usually add fish after we have done water changes, so the fish will have up to another 1 week of stable water temp, chemistry before the next 20-30% water change.


    Stabilty of tank also depends largely on tank size and plant volume. Smaller the tank, the harder it becomes. 50% water change in a nano 10 litre tank has huge impact than a 400 litre tank with 50% water change.


    Cycling period for different setup also differs. I gauge cycling is complete when there is 0 ammonia/nitrite (not nitrate) and absence of diatoms brown algae. My large 3 feet 185L tank took 4 months to complete it's cycle before I added 3 shrimps.


    Not much to advise now. Impulsive fish buying has always been frown upon on most forum. The worst case I have seen is someone buying 50 cardinal tetras and squeeze into his 1 ft tank. Within 2 weeks, massacre. But he was still ignorant of the advise given and went out to buy another 50 tetras and 2 angel fish. In the end $150++ down the drain in few weeks. He gave up fish keeping and was last seen selling his full $500 tank setup on carousel.
    Hi torque

    Thanks for being frank

    Perhaps you could advise on what you think I should do now to improve the chances of survival for m4y current fish?

    I also forgot in my first post but the dimensions of the tank are 61x31x34 cm.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Wahhh 4 months to cycle a 3ft tank? That’s long.

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    If your tank is not cycled and you added fish, then there is no way to go around that, fish will just die in this setup. However, the stronger ones will live.


    Doing huge 50% water change every day will also result in unstable water parameters, imagine within 2 days 100% water change and the fish has to get used to the new water all over again. In a cycle tank, we usually add fish after we have done water changes, so the fish will have up to another 1 week of stable water temp, chemistry before the next 20-30% water change.


    Stabilty of tank also depends largely on tank size and plant volume. Smaller the tank, the harder it becomes. 50% water change in a nano 10 litre tank has huge impact than a 400 litre tank with 50% water change.


    Cycling period for different setup also differs. I gauge cycling is complete when there is 0 ammonia/nitrite (not nitrate) and absence of diatoms brown algae. My large 3 feet 185L tank took 4 months to complete it's cycle before I added 3 shrimps.


    Not much to advise now. Impulsive fish buying has always been frown upon on most forum. The worst case I have seen is someone buying 50 cardinal tetras and squeeze into his 1 ft tank. Within 2 weeks, massacre. But he was still ignorant of the advise given and went out to buy another 50 tetras and 2 angel fish. In the end $150++ down the drain in few weeks. He gave up fish keeping and was last seen selling his full $500 tank setup on carousel.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    ya, i saw earlier, that your tank is 2 feet, so about 65 litres. If have ICH and have substrate, then problem, the parasite will hide in the soil and reinfect weak fish. The medication only kills ICH when they are free floating. This is why for ICH, best to treat with bare bottom tank. Option is to move the already sick fish to another quarantine tank but that = high stress, so far doing this with already sick fish = all die, at least for me. You can medicate in the existing tank if you do not have shrimps or snails but you already have yamato shrimps so that rules out medication since most of them have some % of copper.


    Now you know the dilema of not following what's recommended....


    One of the best practice is the following:-
    1) Start up tank, plant densely and let it cycle 1 month.
    2) In (1) if using canister, prep additional 2-3 sponges to seed bacteria.
    3) after 1 month, remove sponge from canister to quarantine tank fit the sponge to those power heads/ air pumps. Check if water stable, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH etc.
    4) within the week of pt (3), add newly bought fish into quarantine tank for 3 weeks. Can add paraguard or ich med or copper med the following week. Ensure not to exceed 50% fish load - use AQadvisor to determine bioload.
    5) add all fish to display tank if no signs of diease.
    6) repeat for other fish addition.


    As you can see, very very tedious. But reports from numerous forums conveyed that the survivable rate is very high and fish last for few years, depending also on longevitiy of the fish of course.


    But I don't think a majority of us do that. Most just acclimate and dump in after buying from LFS. If lucky, all fish healthy. If not lucky, fish start having problems some months down the road (die for no reasons). If very unlucky = all die in few weeks.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    ya, i saw earlier, that your tank is 2 feet, so about 65 litres. If have ICH and have substrate, then problem, the parasite will hide in the soil and reinfect weak fish. The medication only kills ICH when they are free floating. This is why for ICH, best to treat with bare bottom tank. Option is to move the already sick fish to another quarantine tank but that = high stress, so far doing this with already sick fish = all die, at least for me. You can medicate in the existing tank if you do not have shrimps or snails but you already have yamato shrimps so that rules out medication since most of them have some % of copper.


    Now you know the dilema of not following what's recommended....


    One of the best practice is the following:-
    1) Start up tank, plant densely and let it cycle 1 month.
    2) In (1) if using canister, prep additional 2-3 sponges to seed bacteria.
    3) after 1 month, remove sponge from canister to quarantine tank fit the sponge to those power heads/ air pumps. Check if water stable, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH etc.
    4) within the week of pt (3), add newly bought fish into quarantine tank for 3 weeks. Can add paraguard or ich med or copper med the following week. Ensure not to exceed 50% fish load - use AQadvisor to determine bioload.
    5) add all fish to display tank if no signs of diease.
    6) repeat for other fish addition.


    As you can see, very very tedious. But reports from numerous forums conveyed that the survivable rate is very high and fish last for few years, depending also on longevitiy of the fish of course.


    But I don't think a majority of us do that. Most just acclimate and dump in after buying from LFS. If lucky, all fish healthy. If not lucky, fish start having problems some months down the road (die for no reasons). If very unlucky = all die in few weeks.
    Hi torque

    No invertebrates in tank just yet so medication will be ok right? I started dosing with Paraguard on Saturday. Seachem's advice seems to be to continue dosing for 3 weeks as long as fish don't show any signs of stress so that I can kill all generations of the parasite so I'll be dosing until start of December at least.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Yes, you can and hope for the best. Do update if it works.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    Yes, you can and hope for the best. Do update if it works.
    Ok thanks, i'll update over the course of the treatment.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by chickennublet View Post
    Ok thanks, i'll update over the course of the treatment.
    Given the uniqueness of everyone's tank, water parameters and health of fish, it is by no means guarantee that the best practice = 100% success rate.

    I feel this hobby has too much "heng, suay" elements in it when dealing with algae, fish and shrimps.

    One of the questions when using meds like Paraguard is during medication, it kills bacteria / parasites etc, but will it leave the biomedia; beneficial bacteria alone? as in it does not affect good BB? If so, how is it scientifically possible? Many questions like this on many forums still left unanswered. If it does kill good BB, then you pretty much have a uncycled tank with medication at the same time. If I was a fish, I would be damn stress

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    Given the uniqueness of everyone's tank, water parameters and health of fish, it is by no means guarantee that the best practice = 100% success rate.

    I feel this hobby has too much "heng, suay" elements in it when dealing with algae, fish and shrimps.

    One of the questions when using meds like Paraguard is during medication, it kills bacteria / parasites etc, but will it leave the biomedia; beneficial bacteria alone? as in it does not affect good BB? If so, how is it scientifically possible? Many questions like this on many forums still left unanswered. If it does kill good BB, then you pretty much have a uncycled tank with medication at the same time. If I was a fish, I would be damn stress
    Just came home to find another cory dead because of my incompetence. At this rate the remaining 4 survivors probably aren't long for this world.

    I've done a small WC after doing a bit of vacuuming. I'll probably continue to underdose the meds. After today, I'll probably start doing 50% water changes every other day instead of 50% every day.

    Hoping the danios survive this ordeal at least.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by chickennublet View Post
    Just came home to find another cory dead because of my incompetence. At this rate the remaining 4 survivors probably aren't long for this world.

    I've done a small WC after doing a bit of vacuuming. I'll probably continue to underdose the meds. After today, I'll probably start doing 50% water changes every other day instead of 50% every day.

    Hoping the danios survive this ordeal at least.
    If you are using full dose of Paraguard, there is no benefits of doing WC every day or every other day. According to Seachem support, Paraguard doesn't last for more than 24 hours. I also wouldn't do vacuuming at this stage because tank is not cycled and by stirring the substrate may lead to phosphate/nitrate or ammonia spike.

    Just dose and do 30% water change every week.

    Do note that this is a very unforgiving hobby. Even if you are doing all the "right" things, things can still go wrong making it more stressful. I feel this hobby needs to "take your time".

    I was recommended to use 1-2 watts of high output LED for my 3 feet previously, they say I needed better tank depth light penetration cause my tank height is 45cm, but seeing that I only need 25-35 PAR to grow my hairgrass, I went with just 1 set of 0.5 watt LED. So instead of the usual fast grow, all plants fill in in 3 months, I let my tank/system auto pilot, making water changes only once per month. It's almost 1 year now then fill in. The plus side is I didn't spend months cleaning and struggling with algae but spend time growing and selecting plants. Just some food for thought.

    Hope things will work out for you.
    Last edited by torque6; 15th Nov 2017 at 10:23.

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    Re: Panda cory death and other questions

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    If you are using full dose of Paraguard, there is no benefits of doing WC every day or every other day. According to Seachem support, Paraguard doesn't last for more than 24 hours. I also wouldn't do vacuuming at this stage because tank is not cycled and by stirring the substrate may lead to phosphate/nitrate or ammonia spike.

    Just dose and do 30% water change every week.

    Do note that this is a very unforgiving hobby. Even if you are doing all the "right" things, things can still go wrong making it more stressful. I feel this hobby needs to "take your time".

    I was recommended to use 1-2 watts of high output LED for my 3 feet previously, they say I needed better tank depth light penetration cause my tank height is 45cm, but seeing that I only need 25-35 PAR to grow my hairgrass, I went with just 1 set of 0.5 watt LED. So instead of the usual fast grow, all plants fill in in 3 months, I let my tank/system auto pilot, making water changes only once per month. It's almost 1 year now then fill in. The plus side is I didn't spend months cleaning and struggling with algae but spend time growing and selecting plants. Just some food for thought.

    Hope things will work out for you.
    Hi torque

    Thank you for the kind words. I will take note of your advice.

    I think I will still do a bit of vacuuming whenever I notice uneaten food floating around, but I'll try not to stir up the substrate.

    I will also stop doing WCs so frequently. As suggested I'll just do it once a week unless I get dangerously high ammonia levels.

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