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Thread: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

  1. #21
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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

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    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    You can flood next week. Tank is good to go. Good luck. Great setup.
    Get to think of it, dunno can flood next week or not, there are about five clumps of HC browning quite some big portion... what should I do now? Should I pull the brown out and continue dsm? Pull out and flood? Leave it there and continue dsm? Leave it there n flood?

    the rotala MAC spotted one new leaf, but still looks like a clump of mess

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    When I did my DSM HC, it didn't brown, it just keep growing emersed. When I flood, it turned brown, melt a little and grew submersed leaves.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    When I did my DSM HC, it didn't brown, it just keep growing emersed. When I flood, it turned brown, melt a little and grew submersed leaves.
    How long was your emerse?

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    About 5 weeks.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Pulled out some of the browned hc clumps, replanted some Hc and some monte carlo.

    Notice some algae like white thread stuff on dead leaves, is that mold? seems to also effect some of my AR Mini.

    Gonna flood it these few days.

    Should I dose some Fungus treatment after flooding?

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Finally decided, went ahead and flooded the tank. Plastic bucket back and forth the bathroom, should have went ahead and buy a 10meter hose and trunk from the bathroom tab instead. Was busy the whole night, slowly filling up water, setting up filter + lily pipes, setting CO2, bubble counter, diffuser placement bla bla bla... quite a fleet for a first timer.


    Few interesting observation + note-to-self from a newbie:

    1. During water flooding, a tiny 10 cent size cockroach climb out from underneath the driftwood (or the soil? dunno). I DSM with driftwood. pretty sure it wasn't there yesterday when I took the wood out to tie moss.

    2. The soil is so light underwater~! need to be very careful when filling (lol... yes I know... very noob right?)

    3. Accidentally touch a clump of newly planted HC (replacement to the old dying clump) and it floated~! Arg~! putting it back in place is so much of a pain. that leaves me to wonder, how do you plant HC/MC/HG carpeting plant if one does not DSM?

    4. After everything is up and running for 2+ hours, notice most of the plants are pearling? is that possible? those include Rotala Rotundifolia, Rotala Mac, Rotala Bonsai. Air bubble appear on the tip of the stock, helping em to stand straight up in the water. Xmas and Fisident Moss tiny air bubble scatter around them, is that really pearling or just co2 bubble stuck there? Some of the better HC patches are also pearling. Even the Eriocaulon cinereum have bubble at its flower tip.

    5. Now I am wondering how long should I let the CO2 running? now I have it set on a 8 hour timer align with the lights, but some article/posting suggested full blast it for the first few days? I think CO2 is around 4-5bps, too fast to get actual count T_T.

    6. Don't spray too much during DSM, I got hand itchy and spray water every now and then, think that was the cause of the whitish spider web thread like mold, and I think that is killing off some of my plants.

    Will post pic later tonight.

  7. #27
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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Quote Originally Posted by ross.chang View Post
    Finally decided, went ahead and flooded the tank. Plastic bucket back and forth the bathroom, should have went ahead and buy a 10meter hose and trunk from the bathroom tab instead. Was busy the whole night, slowly filling up water, setting up filter + lily pipes, setting CO2, bubble counter, diffuser placement bla bla bla... quite a fleet for a first timer.


    Few interesting observation + note-to-self from a newbie:

    1. During water flooding, a tiny 10 cent size cockroach climb out from underneath the driftwood (or the soil? dunno). I DSM with driftwood. pretty sure it wasn't there yesterday when I took the wood out to tie moss.

    2. The soil is so light underwater~! need to be very careful when filling (lol... yes I know... very noob right?)

    3. Accidentally touch a clump of newly planted HC (replacement to the old dying clump) and it floated~! Arg~! putting it back in place is so much of a pain. that leaves me to wonder, how do you plant HC/MC/HG carpeting plant if one does not DSM?

    4. After everything is up and running for 2+ hours, notice most of the plants are pearling? is that possible? those include Rotala Rotundifolia, Rotala Mac, Rotala Bonsai. Air bubble appear on the tip of the stock, helping em to stand straight up in the water. Xmas and Fisident Moss tiny air bubble scatter around them, is that really pearling or just co2 bubble stuck there? Some of the better HC patches are also pearling. Even the Eriocaulon cinereum have bubble at its flower tip.

    5. Now I am wondering how long should I let the CO2 running? now I have it set on a 8 hour timer align with the lights, but some article/posting suggested full blast it for the first few days? I think CO2 is around 4-5bps, too fast to get actual count T_T.

    6. Don't spray too much during DSM, I got hand itchy and spray water every now and then, think that was the cause of the whitish spider web thread like mold, and I think that is killing off some of my plants.

    Will post pic later tonight.
    3. Do 1-1 stalk, or few stalks, burry deeper into the soil.

    4. It normal, due to difference co2 density between submerge and emerge

    5. 8 hours should be ok, 2 hours before the light come up ( most common practices).

    You can use slow motion video from your mobile phone, and count it while playing back. if you feel too fast to count.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Quote Originally Posted by milk_vanilla View Post
    3. Do 1-1 stalk, or few stalks, burry deeper into the soil.

    4. It normal, due to difference co2 density between submerge and emerge

    5. 8 hours should be ok, 2 hours before the light come up ( most common practices).

    You can use slow motion video from your mobile phone, and count it while playing back. if you feel too fast to count.
    Thanks ~! I'll keep that in mind

    Regarding the CO2 bps, how to know when you can achieve 30~30 ppm? use drop checker and wait for it to turn green?

    or use the CO2 / ppm chat? but that one needs to measure kH, and many article said that aquasoil will alter the water chemistry, so result beh chun de... how arh? how arh?

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    this pic was last tuesday, decided the flood tank because seeing the mold?/fungus? slowly killing off the Hc/ Ar Mini / crypt. not sure of flooding will help but at least at dry status I have no idea what to do too...

    A day after flood, below are the readings:
    NH3/NH4: 4ppm
    NO2: 0.5ppm
    NO3: 0~5ppm


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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    5th day since flooding, the rotala at the back grew quite a bit, the bonsai is a bit slow in growth in comparison. The red Rotala Mac also show nice sign of growth, catching up pretty quick.

    AR Mini still surviving, think the mold?/Fungus? had kill off some, now some still on the dead leaves. My Crypt Wenditi Green is totally devastated, all the leaves looks transparent now and there is layer of white thread all over them, same for some of my HC.

    The weird part for my HC is, there are 5 clumps that survived and noticeably shredded old leaves and spawn new ones, spewing out too. Again, added more hc clumps hopping things will turn out better. Other plants at fore, show marginal or no growth at all. Mid Ground still kinda bare, any suggestion what should I put?

    Reading as of 5th day of flooding are:
    NH3/NH4: 4ppm (still?... anyway, is good to have ammonia right? at least we know the cycle process will start?... anyway I kiasu, dose API quick start.)
    NO2: 0.25ppm ( reduced, good sign?)
    NO3:0~5ppm ( this is bad right? I mean, having so many plants now, with this reading so low, will I need to nitrogen, to prevent Nitrogen deficiency?)

    drift wood on the right still won't sink. HELP~..? or is this normal? today flipped it around the tank a bit, got some air bubble inside but yet still the same...

    still have no idea on the CO2 bps yet, have not buy drop checker yet... now just guestimate only. blast until see plant perl, good enuf... lol, anyone care to help out a newbie here? or should I get a drop checker?


  11. #31
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    Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    For newly kicked in tank, To keep your ammonia at bay while waiting your bacteria cycled, more frequent 40-50% water change are advisable. At least 2x a week, 3-4 time better for 3-4weeks duration (depend how fast your tank cycled)

    To test whether you have enough co2, either

    1. get drop checker
    2. Use ph pen digital meter, see how much the drop before co2 and after 3-4 hours co2 on. If the ph drop between 0.8 - 1. Should be good start, you can tune it later since you don’t have fishes/fauna.
    3. Monitor your plant growth. You have good light, and soil. So i trust you don’t have nutrient deficiency within the next few months (except potassium and micros). If your plan suffer from new growth, and melting without any submerged plant come out, very likely caused by co2.

    Hope it helps, can’t wait to see the the next journal update

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    8th day since flooded, things hadn’t pick up much, did a 40% two days go and 60% WC today, suck up some dead leaves, the Cryptocroyne Wenditi Green had totally died off, new patches of HC also dying, not sure why.

    Ph was around 6 ~6.4 earlier so today I scooped some soda bicarbonate into the water, tested with kit, parameters were:

    Ph: 7.4 ~ 7.6
    Ammonia: 1~2ppm
    NO2: 0~0.25ppm
    NO3: 0ppm

    I’ve two drop checker with me now, one uses a solution that need water mix, (where could I get a 4dKh water?) and a ISTA dc that comes with solution that does not require mixing. put both in tank and waiting to see which turn color first... lol.

    The Rotala Rotounfolia is growing too fast, almost 3/4 tank height now. the bonsai, I felt should have place it in mid instead of back, growth kinda slow. The rotala Mac? blossoming... ar mini still surviving, HC doing so so, others new leaves are spawning.

    hopefully the adjusted pH will help the cycle... haiz...

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Quote Originally Posted by milk_vanilla View Post
    1. get drop checker
    Got it, dunno how to calibrate the solution mixture

    Ends up getting another one with pre-mixed solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by milk_vanilla View Post
    2. Use ph pen digital meter, see how much the drop before co2 and after 3-4 hours co2 on. If the ph drop between 0.8 - 1. Should be good start, you can tune it later since you don’t have fishes/fauna.
    Ordered from Qoo10, waiting delivery.

    what does pH drop between 0.8~1 signifies?

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Some drift wood wouldn't sink even after boiling + soaking them. Just make sure when you buy them in LFS, that they aren't too light. Some driftwood have hollow interior and do trap air to an extend. I threw away several driftwood late last year because they refuse to sink after 9 months in the tank. I tied rocks to them initially but found them to be a hassle once the fishing line loosens and all of them started to hang in the mid of the tank.

    Crypt wenditi are prone to melting but do give them some time as they do grow back if the roots are intact. Rotala adapts the fastest, but may lose most of the lower leaves in 2-3 months time if there is insufficient light. Just adjust your twinstar so that it's a good spread. Twinstar adaptor should run hot, you using any fans to cool it?

    There probably wouldn't be too noticeable growth in 8 days, give it like 5-8 weeks for the plants to adapt and fill in. The recommendation for doing 2x weekly water change is to keep ammonia low as ADA AS tend to leech ammonia which can cause algae. Doing water changes doesn't improve cycling. If you had started DSM, you already have cycled your tank and there will be bacteria in the soil. You just need to let the bacteria grow in your bio media now.

    For 4DKH solution, you can DIY (youtube) and you do not need to mix tank water. Just have a KH test kit to test for accuracy. (API -> 4 drops to turn yellow from blue).

    Just to add, most people who use ADA AS do not add sodium bicarbonate to their tank to regulate PH, they just leave it as that. Sodium bicarbonate is just too unreliable to be use as a PH buffer.
    Last edited by torque6; 11th Apr 2018 at 12:02.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    Crypt wenditi are prone to melting but do give them some time as they do grow back if the roots are intact. Rotala adapts the fastest, but may lose most of the lower leaves in 2-3 months time if there is insufficient light. Just adjust your twinstar so that it's a good spread. Twinstar adaptor should run hot, you using any fans to cool it?
    So the crypt will grow back? cool. now my staurogyne repens also starting to melt, very very slowly thou

    The Twinstar powerbrick? yes its hot. the top side of the LED is also hot, not using any fans. it does worries me somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    There probably wouldn't be too noticeable growth in 8 days, give it like 5-8 weeks for the plants to adapt and fill in. The recommendation for doing 2x weekly water change is to keep ammonia low as ADA AS tend to leech ammonia which can cause algae. Doing water changes doesn't improve cycling. If you had started DSM, you already have cycled your tank and there will be bacteria in the soil. You just need to let the bacteria grow in your bio media now.
    How long did your tank takes to cycle after DSM?

    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    For 4DKH solution, you can DIY (youtube) and you do not need to mix tank water. Just have a KH test kit to test for accuracy. (API -> 4 drops to turn yellow from blue).
    Argsh... u mean getting distill water and incrementally mix baking soda? and also, kH test is kinda finicky



    Quote Originally Posted by torque6 View Post
    Just to add, most people who use ADA AS do not add sodium bicarbonate to their tank to regulate PH, they just leave it as that. Sodium bicarbonate is just too unreliable to be use as a PH buffer.
    I did it because, there are article stating that BB either do not cultivate, or grow very slow at low pH.

    With Co2, the pH test shows Yellow, the lowest value, thus also not sure how lower it is.

    But you are right about baking soda, so now I'm thinking crush corals, how much should I add? lol...

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Twinstar dimmers for both the E + S series are out in UK, it looks like the chihiros dimmer but it has 10 step instead of 7. 10% increments to 100% full. It should lower the heat output if you are able to get it. Lawrence from EOA did say they won't be bringing it in.

    I did DSM HC for my 1 feet tank. Nitrite test kit showed blue in under 3 weeks after flooding and there were no more diatom algae. For my 3 feet, it's the same for nitrite, but diatom algae only stopped growing after 6 months mark, citing fully cycled.

    DIY 4DKH is easy. 2.5 milligrams ( I think ) to 2 litres of distilled water. Mix it. Then take out 50 ml of this water and add to 450 ml of new distilled water. Then use API KH kit to test if accurate at 4DKH.

    I probably won't worry about BB cultivating at this point. Just to ensure your plants grow. You should start seeing first hint of algae the week after the next if plants continue to melt though.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Did a couple of partial WC these few days. Hung a bag of coral chips in tank to see how pH react.

    Nitrite is showing 2ppm yesterday (blue with slight purple tint?... very difficult to tell)

    Will wait 1-2 more days to do a full test.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    An update with picture taken from yesterday.

    HC: some still dying/dead. other patches are growing and expanding. no new growth of the white threaded moddy stuff on the HC but mostly still there

    Rotala Rotundfolia on the left, grows almost 1cm each day, bloody fast. Had to side/front trim it before it over shade its neighbour. still wondering if I should do top trimming at this point as I want to maintain minimal side shoot at this point...

    Rotala Bonsai beside it: slowly growing, should have place it in mid tank instead of back

    Between the Bonsai and the Rotala Mac, is the Bacopa Caroliniana (just found out the name of the plant) at the bottom and the long tall shoot is Helanthium Vesuvius with it's beautiful twisting leaf. both fast grower, kept triming the Caroliniana as it kept shooting sideways.

    The red Rotala Mac at the back, is growing prettier daily. fast growth, but not as fast as the Rotundfolia, really excited when see pinkish leaves spawn at the top

    On the far right, is the community of Hygrophila Pinnatifida and a Echinodorus cordifolius Tropical Marble Queen. The marble queen's leave all died off during dsm, guess it need moisture and the lights were too strong, cut off the dead stuff and now new leaf spawning. Pinnatifida, had it since dsm from tissue cultured, slow grow. submersed leaves growing in brownish color instead of green during emersed.

    Staurogyne Repens are slowly dying from the lushly growth it had during dsm, shreading to make way for submersed leaf? dunno, my daily siphon include sucking up dead leaf from these patches as well...

    Eriocaulon Quinquangulare is growing pretty good, red color only show under water.

    The AR Mini, stop dying *yay* and new leaf started to show, thou the unknown white stuff does take away quite a bit of the lushly red bunch it had developed during dsm... sian..

    Marimo moss ball hate lights... mine turning brown under strong light.. lol, waiting for the bunch to outgrow and shade it...

    still have some different type of Crypt here and there, the bunch of Crypt wenditi green from tissue cultured grown during DSM had all died off, but on the bright side, new leaf are showing from the remains. good sigh.

    Added Coral chip in bag to bring up pH, now around 7ish. is that too much? dunno how to gauge how much to add, waiting for pH to stabalized, then will stash the coral in the filter.


  19. #39
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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    If you don’t see any positive submerged shoots growth after 2-3 weeks, i suspect your co2 not good enough (either quantity or distribution). Your light is considered high light, you should pump more co2, with more finer bubbles and good distribution.

    I never use coral chips for ph manipulation reason, frequent WC during start up is good enough, our tap water ph is 7+, good enough to rejuvenate your low ph concern. Plus you help your bacteria to remove the organics and other toxin (ammonia, nitrite, etc) since they are not mature enough.

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    Re: Planted Tank Newbie, 3ft Tank, DSM

    Quote Originally Posted by milk_vanilla View Post
    If you don’t see any positive submerged shoots growth after 2-3 weeks, i suspect your co2 not good enough (either quantity or distribution). Your light is considered high light, you should pump more co2, with more finer bubbles and good distribution.

    I never use coral chips for ph manipulation reason, frequent WC during start up is good enough, our tap water ph is 7+, good enough to rejuvenate your low ph concern. Plus you help your bacteria to remove the organics and other toxin (ammonia, nitrite, etc) since they are not mature enough.
    Well most of the growth are superbly positive with exception of different patches of HC. The dead crypts are spawing new leaf which is good. Stauryogen Repen leaf melting, leaving the green sterm with some slow spawn of baby leaf at the tip... oh a recent addition to the melting list: Eriocaulon quinquangulare... sigh, dunno what’s wrong, probably the gH I read? gonna get a gH checker over the weekend to find out.

    CO2 is lowered to 1~2bps now, plants are still bubbling like crazy at this point. Wondering when should I trim the Rotala Rotoundfolia and how much should I trip? scare I trip too often the whole bunch will become bushier as 1 sterm become two. Thinking of getting a Lugwig. Red Repens. where can I find it? should I wait till my tank is fully cycle before getting more plants?

    quick check today:
    pH: 6.8
    Nitrite: 2~5ppm (can’t really tell, color too close)
    Nitrate: 5ppm

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