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Thread: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

  1. #1
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    Newbie unsure of male and female pair

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    Hi, I am new in Appistogramma fishkeeping. Would like to ask for advice on identifying the sex of my
    apistogramma cacatuoides pair.
    Reason for asking is suspect the 'female' could be a sneaker male.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/169618.../shares/po69s8

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    It's really hard to tell with domestic morphs, because females start to have many features typically found only in males, e.g. in your case colour and patterning on the caudal fin.

    However, I think from your photos it does look like a proper female (no lower jaw hypertrophy, leading edges of ventral fins are black, no elongation of anterior dorsal fin spines, no filamentous extensions on posterior dorsal and anal fin portions).

    Sneaker males are very hard to distinguish, even for male apistos. Burchard (1965) observed A. trifasciata sneaker males making their way into a dominant male's territory to fertilize eggs of females in his territory.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of adding 2 more females but I do not want to choose wrongly. Yes, it looks like it is more difficult now to choose a female.
    I am also preparing another tank.
    Currently may I know the easiest apisto to differentiate the sex? From my observation, the agassi would be a best option.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    The easiest apistos to sex for me are those I've bred a lot of, but even for those, it's really hard to identify young females. It is never 100% certain with young fish.

    Older fish (above 6 months), well fed and kept in good conditions, won't be able to suppress their male features, if they're male. So one of the best ways is to put a mature suspected female on her own for 2 to 4 weeks in a small tank, feed well and provide clean water. If "she" starts to develop male features, you have confirmed the animal's sex.

    (But to complicate things, very old females can become males and fertilize eggs! Documented a few times by hobbyists in A. cacatuoides, and in the species description paper for A. allpahuayo.)

    You could always pick up a pair that has spawned before, i.e. a proven pair. Some shops display their apistos in pairs and they do lay eggs in the display tank. Hobbyists also sometimes let go of their fish which have spawned before.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Thanks again. Great advice. Will keep a lookout for a proven pair.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Came back today to find eggs in one of the cave's wall and the confirmed female in its brooding yellow. wow..

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Congrats! I have a couple of spawns here too - never gets old watching them raise the babies.

    WhatsApp Image 2019-02-04 at 15.34.07.jpg

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Wow that's a lot of fries...

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    That's a normal sized brood I think. About 50 fish or so.

    From your photo, I estimate more than 50 eggs. They don't look like much, but when you actually count them it's quite a lot! Of course, not all eggs and fry will make it. Sometimes many have developmental issues.

    This A. mendezi pair of mine tends to produce a large percentage of fish that don't manage to develop proper swim bladder function. I'm not sure why, but it's been the case for four broods already.

    In any case, there are enough fry to keep the species going, and I don't ask for more.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    I see that you have a bare bottomed tank..is it easier to maintain the tank's cleanliness? The reason i use the substrate is because it is easier to maintain the ph. I would love to try using a bare bottomed tank for my next pair of apisto.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Saw the fries exactly 7 days later.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/169618...posted-public/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/169618...posted-public/

    Thanks again for the advices here.
    Not really expecting anything yet, but hopefully they will survive and grow.

    Currently now separated all dither fishes and male.
    Feeding them baby brine shrimps.

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    Re: Newbie unsure of male and female pair

    Quote Originally Posted by redngold View Post
    I see that you have a bare bottomed tank..is it easier to maintain the tank's cleanliness? The reason i use the substrate is because it is easier to maintain the ph. I would love to try using a bare bottomed tank for my next pair of apisto.
    Yes it's because I have too many tanks and bare-bottom is easy to clean. I never wanted to keep fish this way, but when there are too many fish and too little time, it just happens.

    I have to confess, I do water changes by setting up a whole new GEX "S" tank, move the tank decor over (after scrubbing a bit), move the fish over (no acclimatization), and then bring the old tank to the toilet for a wash and scrub.

    I prepare my water in a reservoir tank using gardening peat. I get great parameters for apisto-keeping, and I never need to acclimatize my fish when switching them between containers.

    Quote Originally Posted by redngold View Post
    Saw the fries exactly 7 days later.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/169618...posted-public/
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/169618...posted-public/

    Thanks again for the advices here.
    Not really expecting anything yet, but hopefully they will survive and grow.

    Currently now separated all dither fishes and male.
    Feeding them baby brine shrimps.
    They should do fine with BBS. Cichlid fry are not one of the super-challenging kinds to raise. You can continue to do water changes and all that. The fry should do well so long as you feed at least once a day (preferably twice a day, but we're all busy).

    To grow to full sexual maturity takes six months, so plan for that. Cleaner water and more frequent feeding make them grow faster, but the earliest your offspring can breed is still at least four to five months old. The fry actually begin behaving like adults quite early, maybe at the second month they will start establishing hierarchies with displays and sometimes biting, but it's not so bad you need to separate them immediately. Because females grow more slowly than males (ovary development is more energy intensive than testes development), you might want to remove the smaller fish to grow separately. If not, you might end up with an uneven sex ratio because the smaller fish i.e. the females get outcompeted for food, experience more harassment, and die in larger numbers.

    Also, in apistos, sex determination is dependent somewhat on temperature and pH for the first 30 days of their life (see Romer 1996). There's a bias towards more males at higher temperatures and lower pH, for most species. But don't worry about it unless you see very skewed sex ratios. Most local breeders don't experience problems here, and you should be fine too.
    Last edited by boofeng; 13th Feb 2019 at 17:47. Reason: typo

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