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Thread: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

  1. #61
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    it is very good information for me

  2. #62
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    nice to know it is possible to have planted tank with CO2. i was planning to get CO2, now i'll just skip it

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    BTW, there are some more philosophical reasons we have aquariums, and this method is more along the lines of folks who like low impact green organic methods.

    While I have suggested some KNO3 etc, most of it will ideally be balanced with good aquarium feeding/fish loads/care.

    So that the fish waste = all the plant growth.

    You may have to add a little KNO3 or K+, Fe etc here and there to get better plant health vs fish waste alone.

    However, the goal is to reduce the input/outputs with this method.
    Less labor, better cycling, cheaper, less nutrients required and those fish waste help the system and help.

    Some folks add too many fish, this is a worse case vs too little where we can add a little bit of KH2PO4 etc to top things off.

    No one can be perfect with fish waste and have perfect plant health, you'd need to analyze and feed the fish very different things. That's going to be very tough.

    The other option is to just live with so so plant health, which is not that bad, but you also want to have some nice health and use more species with this method, so there's a trade off there.

    I've looked to making an organic NPK fertilizer and I think I have one.
    Folks use it a lot in Rice: Azolla dried and composted.

    Makes an excellent livestock feed as well.
    Livestock Manure(think your fish) feeds the Azolla (think your weeds) and you compost this Azolla to feed the Rice plants.

    Makes for the nice cycle.
    You need to mineralize the Azolla compost however if you plan on using it in the water column or dose at very low rates. Alternatively, you can use a mineralized soil sediment as well or alone.

    Regards
    Tom Barr

  4. #64
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    I'm reading up on all aspects of planted tank before going into it.
    Good source of information! Give me one more alternative

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterGwee View Post
    Hi Folks, here is Tom's detailed explanation on Non-CO2 methods with plants. Enjoy!

    Permission granted by Tom Barr for use of his article.

    Regards
    Peter Gwee

    Wow..that is a great information.. now i can try testing my plant tank without my co2 and see how is the result..
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    hi just wondering does non co2 method works for riccia? i love growing these but hate pruning them . so the non co2 will enable a slow growth but will the riccia still bubble?

  7. #67
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    I accept with information:super-nano that is doing quite ok with weekly dosings of KNO3, KH2PO4 and Seachem equilibrum as well as Seachem Excel. Growth was really slow and lots of hair algae appeared during the first few weeks because I let it ulitise sunlight from a window.
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Hello everyone. This is my first post ever. I have been reading up lately & have finally decided that nonco2 is the way to go, for me anyways. I am planning to use Aquasoil Amazonia. I am planning to do the Dry Start Method by Tom for 2 months with Hairgrass. Then fill up the tank with stem plants like Ludwigia Repens, Hygrophilia Difformis, Limnophila sessiliflora. I would like to use Seachem Excel for 2 months before gradually tapering it over another 2 months and going into NonCO2.

    The thing is I really like to include Christmas Moss into this list but I think I read up that the moss species don't agree too well in an Excel environment. Your help really matters. Any input is great. Is there any way to go around this as I really like Aquasoil Amazonia with Christmas Moss and not really the CO2 kind of guy.

  9. #69
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    What if I soak only the aqua soil amazonia for about 3 months to cycle it. No Dry Start Planting during this period. Then at the end of 2 months, flood the tank & do several large water changes (5-6 times) and start planting the Christmas Moss and go directly into nonco2 mode. I will be planting large numbers of stem plants too at this stage so that the tank is packed from Day 1,.. just as Tom Barr had advised on a thread. In this way, I am thinking I will be able to avoid the high NH4 spikes that come with a new tank with aquasoil amazonia and hence would be able to use it for a nonco2 tank. I am doing the right thing? Please help. Thank you again.

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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    The dry start method + this method works nicely.

    Even Hc does okay.

    Another version is to use CO2, but use low light.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr

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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    I am starting a small tank with a rug of HC and moss. Tank volume is around 8.5 litres and lighting is 11 watts. Started the tank with the dry-start method and intending to flood the tank soon, before more fungi start attacking.

    Is the light too strong for my tank size to do a non-CO2 enriched tank? If so, I will have to shift the light further or shield it to limit the light...

    Is there a list of parameters I can follow to dose fertilisers for the low-tech tank? For my high-tech tank, I am aiming at a weekly dosing of:

    NO3: 30ppm
    K: 30ppm
    PO4: 2ppm
    Mg: 10ppm
    Fe: 0.5ppm

    Is there a similar list of parameters, or a ratio to maximum uptake rate, which I can follow for the above non-CO2 enriched tank? If I am going to dose with Excel, do I dose following the recommended amount, or more? For water changes, how often do I need to do it, and how much percent of tank water each time?

    Sorry for the tonne of questions and I hope someone can advise on these. I know estimative index is supposed to be estimative, but still I hope for some numbers as a reference as I do not intend to do water tests to determine the uptake rates, and also do not wish to limit the plants in any nutrient.

    Thanks again for any help.

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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    This is not really EI, which uses water changes.

    The goal here is to avoid the water changes.

    Excel is a hybrid method, you can do water changes say 1x a month, 50% and then dose Excel daily etc, and add 1/4 the dose of EI, and this will give you about the same target build up maximum(no more than 2x the total for the month, which is 4x less or the same build up you get with weekly water changes).

    In real tanks, the build up is less than the maximum.

    Now even these two methods(hybrid/pure no Excel/no CO2) can be eyeballed.
    suicne you knwo what non limiting non CO2 or non Excel plant health looks like, you can progressively reduce the dosing and watch carefully, dosing more once you see any sign of negative limited growth of plants.

    Then move away from the water changes/dosing routine.
    This same method can be done on EI/CO2 enriched systems and reduce water changes/dosing etc.

    Regards,
    Tom Barr

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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    I agree with your comments about the substrate and your point about the substrate as a major success factor for a non-CO2 tank. However, it just reinforces my point that if CO2 is the limiting factor (such as the case in which an inappropriate substrate is used), a higher CO2 level (be it due to a change of substrate to a more appropriate one or injection of co2) would support more plants, ceteris paribus.

    And if you extend the argument, if there is a change of substrate plus the injection of co2, the tank would be able to support more plants, provided co2 is not the limiting factor.

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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    I put money in tourism! =) I love myself, and want get positive emotions. visit different countres it's my favorite goal. I was in many countres but sometimes I have financial problems. Not all bank-automation give me money...I found decision very long, but finally I had solve this problem) Now I use Debit cards for travel. It' easy and practical way to keep your money)

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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Hi Ali

    Huh?
    cheers
    eddy planer

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  16. #76
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Great info...thanks, I've juz started a low tech 5 footer planted tank and this thread really provided me with some great insights...

  17. #77
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Great insight for me to build another tank...
    Thank you.

  18. #78

    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Yes that is right. She adds a little more than what the fish require.

  19. #79

    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Agreed with you BC.

  20. #80
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    Re: Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method

    Hi All,

    I have read up the non-Co2 method over the last few days and will be keen to start one myself. However, after going through the many threads in this forum as well as other websites, I still have some doubts on how to get started for a fresh tank.

    Below are some of the questions which I hope those experienced in non-CO2 method can advise me.

    1) I read in Tom Barr's articles that he encourages us to use porous substrate with a high CEC (Cation exchange capacity) such as Flourite, Eco-complete, Onyx-sand, etc with Leonardite at the base. However, I am not sure where to get Leonardite in Singapore. If I manage to get Leonardite, should I use it solely for the base or mixed it with the porous substrate and top it up with porous substrate? What is the recommended thickness for the base and top layer? I see that a lot of hobbyists recommend the use of ADA Aquasoil and noted that for newly setup tank there will be NH4 spike. Can someone guide me on how to pre-cycle the aquasoil? I understand that aquasoil is packed with nutrients. Do I still dose in KNO3, KH2PO4 and Seachem Equilibrium after 1 week or go without it until I see that my plants are showing signs of nutrient deficiency?

    2) The emphasize of the article is mainly on non limiting nutrients to ensure good plant growth. How about stuffs like pH, water hardness and water temperature etc? I see that in a CO2 system hobbyist usually use CO2 to bring down the pH to about 6.7. Since we don't use CO2, how do we bring down the pH or should we be even concern with it? How about water hardness? Is it important? Ambient temperature in Singapore can sometimes shoot up 29 deg C. With the lights on, I guess water temperature can easily shoot above 30 deg C. Do you guys normally use a chiller or fan to bring down the water temperature. My concern is that the above parameters will affect plant growth which in directly affect the uptake of nutrients.

    3) I read that DSM method can be combined with non CO2 system. In the forum, a lot of them failed when they start to flood the tank. Likely reason being that there is a drastic change in condition and the plants are not able to adapt. Some suggested to have CO2 during this transition phase. In Tom Barr's article, fluctuations in the CO2 levels in your tank will provide a perfect environment for algae to start thriving in. I am wondering if I induce CO2 during the transition phase, will I cause algae to grow?

    I apologise for the long list of questions. I used to keep CO2 planted tank about 10 years ago and I have serious problems with algae. Henceforth, this round, I would like to ensure that I start off correctly.

    Thanks.

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