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Thread: Problem Setting up a 2 ft Marine Tank - Please help me

  1. #1
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    Problem Setting up a 2 ft Marine Tank - Please help me

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    Dear Marine hobbist,

    Before I begin telling you my problme, Let me do a short intro about myself. I'm a new Marine Hobbist and my passion in this Marine is gone MAD for already 6 mths. I'm really love watching Marine fishes and corals daancing under the current beaneath the ocean. I'm really glad that I found this forum and learnt many new trick about marine. Really appreciate those that have spent time replying all the message.

    Background:
    6 mths ago, I started off with a 1 ft marine tank. It went well for about one month before the marine system collapsed. So I tried re-starting the system again and about 3 weeks later, it started to collapse again. I think the main problem is that I over crowded the tank with about 4 to 6 fishes and some corals.

    My problem (setting up a 2 ft tank):
    I shall begin to state down my problem now. After spending so much $$$ on this 1 ft tank. I decided to start with a 2 ft tank. What happen was that within the same day, I started to run my filter system with new mixed salt water and put about 5 to 10 kg of live rock into the tank. But after 2 days, marinf tank collapse. All the rock die and water turn smelly. So I thought my water circulation is not strong enough, I purchase one more power head and re-start to build up the 2 ft tank with NEW life rock. But it fail again. I purchase another more powerful power head and repeat the whole process. But again, after 2 days, the system collapse again. I'm real real sad and my passion shaken. But I give myself one more chance to set up this 2 ft marine tank again. Now, the tank is running with crystal clear water with just only 1 yellow goby and 2 hermit crabs. I really afraid to begin from here. I'm lost NOW. I'm afraid to come back home from work to see all the tank collapse and the house turn smelly. Can anyone please help me by providing me step by step procedure so that I'm able to make it for my last try. PLEASE advise.

    Perhaps, before you give your value suggestion. Let me brieftly state down the exisiting equipment that I having now and what sort of constraint i have.

    My existing equipment:

    1) qty 1 Ehiem 2228 cannister filter (3 layers of filterinf: bottom layer = zeolite + coral chip/ sand, middle layer = ceramic (cylinder shape) + Biohome, Top layer = activated carbon + polyfilter + wool

    2) 2 ft tank (600x300x450 mm) = 73 L = 16 gal inclusive of 2 tubes marine lighting

    3) 3 power heads

    4) 1 surface skimmer


    My constraint:

    1. I wanted very much for a big tank (at least 4 ft) but I'm going to shift house within the next 3 years. So I decided to just have a 2ft tank to satisfy my passion over marine fishes. Too troublesome to shift big tank ....so no choice lah. Will definitely set up a bigger tank at my new place but in 3 years time.

    2. The room that I placed my 2 ft tank is rather warm about 31 deg. I tried placing a fan to blow the water but can't really help ...sometime the temp drop to 29 deg but still not good enough.


    Some other question that need advise:

    1. Can anyone help me to set up my small 2 ft marine tank. I wanted to keep 70% fishes and 30% corals. Anyone willing to help me to do landscaping etc... please leave your contacts.

    2. From my existing equipment, what sort of equipment that I'm shortage of. Please help to list down. Preferably, I can make use of this equipment for my future 4 ft tank (i.e. use it on 2 ft but later in future, still can be use on 4th tank)


    Thank & Regards
    Ivan
    p.s. my passion in marine break out and uncontrollable !

  2. #2
    Hi Ivan,

    I'm currently doing up a new 4-footer, but I've had a 2-footer several years ago that went well for several months until an anemone crashed it.

    I would HIGHLY recommend a protein skimmer - it really works wonders. I was away for 4 days just after I placed my live rock in the 4-footer, and when I came back the water had turned cloudy. After getting a good skimmer, the PS pulled out a whole load of jet-black gunk and the tank was saved. And the rocks survived happily ever after. [] You could get a cheap taiwanese counter-current make, which was what I used on my previous 2-footer - otherwise, without a sump (you can't use those in-sump models obviously then), you might have to fork out about $300 or so to get a stand-alone model.

    Another thing - you shouldn't have put in any animals straight after you placed the live rock in. Leave the LR to cure first, then add. The LR will add sufficient quantities of ammonia, NO2 etc to build up a bacterial colony which will arm your tank to handle larger bioloads later.

    What fish do you intend to keep? Try not to get coral-eating ones if you're going to keep any corals at all. Maybe tangs, royal gramma, firefish, cardinals and damsels will do ...

    Regards,
    Hong Yee

  3. #3
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    Hong Yee,

    You mean that after the live rock turn smelly and the water turn cloudy, I'm still able to re-use back the rock, provided I'm equipped with a protein skimmer ? If yes, I'm real stupid *** in this world because I threw the smelly rock away (3 occasions), thinking it has already dead and have no use or perhaps side effect in using the rock.

    Thanks
    Ivan
    p.s my passion in marine will never die !!!

  4. #4
    i think u r adding too much live rock in a small volume of water at a very rapid rate.
    try adding abit by abit. massive die off could hv crashed ur tank.
    Acroporids and Tridacnids

  5. #5
    Dont give up... i think most of us here have had our taste of bitter crashing failure.

    Well you didnt do wrong in throwing away the live rock... as what you said, it may be dead, and if you keep the 'dead' live rock (sounds lame) you're gonna have to cycle your tank for at least... 3 months before your system is 'safe' for any additions

    I believe you have been 'conned' by the shopkeeper or something... I myself have experienced some irresponsible shop owners who would lie through their teeth just to get something sold...
    eg: Morrish Idols are easy to keep, butterflies are reef friendly... clams need fluorecent light to thrive... makes me feel rather irked

    Know your facts well, dont trust the shopkeepers

    It's going to be very hard for you to keep corals with the lighting you probably have with a 2 footer, as well as the temperatures that your tank might be experiencing... (then again my tank hits 30degs too hahaz...)

    Keep ONLY soft corals... all hard corals will not take the temperature fluctuations. Can try things like: Zooanthids, Palythias (correct spelling not hahaz...), mushrooms, clove polyps, star polyps, tubeworms...

    For your fish... dottybacks, grammas, if you're lucky maybe a dwarf angel (cherub, flameback?)

    For the skimmer, an air driven one will actually suffice for your tank, but if you have cash to blow, get Red Sea Prizm... Hahaz... Looks good...

    Lastly... must be honest with yourself lahz... 2 foot is pretty small... and changes in water conditions... be it pH, or a die off, will very instantly affect the whole tank... so get hardy stuff and stock slowly... =)

    Lastly: Good luck!! =)

  6. #6
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    ivan... u need to cycle your tank to get the filters to settle down first.. ie, to get the bacteria settle in.. dumping in lots of live rocks on the first day will eventually crash the system..
    to do a proper nitrogen cycle.. u need up to 28 days.. with just a couple of rocks to cycle the tank.. but u can shorten the time span by seeding your tank by using sand or used wool from someone's tank..
    u should get a book as well.. read more abt the hobby first.. if not, if this goes on.. u gonna think that marine aquarium is very ex.. YES... it is if u dun do the right stuff the first time... u should not add first for the first 2 weeks if possible.. but i understand.. everybody would like to have everything up within a day.. mind u.. this is unlike FW fishes or system where everything can go up within a day...
    any problem.. just post... we are more than happy to help our dark side.. hahaha... btw, on behalf of the moderators, welcome to Aquaticquotient.com.... especially, my dark side.. hahaha
    yes.. do go for a skimmer... if money constraint.. go for ORCA.. cheap and good.. me using it with my 4ft.. but will upgrade it when i shift into my own house...btw, from what i read.. u have a surface skimmer???? u should be getting a protein skimmer..[]
    Let us work together to preserve the world for our children to inherit by being responsible to our surroundings. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, bubbles and memories.

  7. #7
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    Yo kel, you can't put everything into a freshwater tank within a day

    Freshwater tanks need cycling too, to cultivate the freshwater bacteria
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled" - Richard Feynman, 1986. Rogers commission into the Challenger disaster

  8. #8
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    cannot meh??? LA did it what.. that is what she told me..[] kenna con... sigh..
    Let us work together to preserve the world for our children to inherit by being responsible to our surroundings. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, bubbles and memories.

  9. #9
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    Dear Marine Buddy,

    Thanks for all the advise so far. Please do throw more knowledge to us...blow us up with new info man.... Frankly speaking, thanks for the reply so far.

    Ok, let me summarise (in question format) and do correct me if, i'm wrong. []

    1. Is my Eheim 2228 filter good enough to support a 2 ft tank ? And a sump is need not for this 2 ft tank ?

    2. Is my filtering layout for the Eheim correct ? (please see 1st e.mail for easy reference)

    3. A protein skimmer is a must have equipment ?

    4. Keep hardy marine fishes and soft coral will likely to be success for my case i.e. for a 2 ft tank ?

    5. For now, I just need to put about 3 kg of live rock first and let the system run for about 3 weeks before adding another 3 kg of live rock. Maximum live rock for 16 gal tank is 8 kg. After that, I can progressively add slowly some soft corals and finally add fishes. Am I right to say that ?

    Please help to answer my 5 queries stated above, so that I can start with confident again. Hope this time it will work.

    Thanks
    Ivan
    p.s. My passion is growing again

  10. #10
    ivan,

    From what you said, you had quite a few live rock die-off instances. How did you transport your live rock? Were the rocks smelly when you brought it home? Just asking cos the live rock that had perished during transportation will turn very smelly within a few days of adding to the tank. In this instance, the live rock is probably dead and you have to either throw it away or sun dry it for use as base rock. From what i understand, having live rock in a 2 ft will not crash it. In fact, it's supposed to seed the water and the substrate for the build up of bacteria and other critters.

    naut

  11. #11
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    naut,

    Thanks for replying.

    I smell the live rock before purchasing and it don't smell bad. Smell like salt water....

    I transport the live rock by car, withing 30 mins I reach home liao....

    I suspect is that I buy too much rock for my 2 ft tank. I read one of the article in this forum, saying that 1 pound (0.45 kg) of live rock needs anout 1 gallon of water (approx 4.1 liter). So for my 2ft tank, i can only have maximum of 8 kg of love rock BUT I'm stupid enough to add twice that figure. And I think I dump all the rock at a go instead of adding bit by bit into the tank...say 3 kg for 21 days and then another 3 kg for another 21 days. Another 2 kg to cater for future soft corals that come with rock.

    Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that.

    Thanks
    Ivan
    ps: my confident is up again
    []

  12. #12
    Doesnt sound like you did anything wrong... maybe you damn lucky lor... something unknown creature in your didnt survive and rotted lor...

    =P

  13. #13
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    1. Is my Eheim 2228 filter good enough to support a 2 ft tank ? And a sump is need not for this 2 ft tank ?for 2ft.. dun need sump lah..2228 is good enuff.. but since it is a all wet filter.. u need to cycle the tank first..u will not be able to get aerobic bacteria as compared to those wet/dry system.. but no worries.. it can still be done..alternatively, u can have the rain bar fall over a box that acts as a trickle filter.. to create that 'dry' part of the system

    2. Is my filtering layout for the Eheim correct ? (please see 1st e.mail for easy reference)IMO, i only used bioballs, filter wool and charcoal.. and in this order..some guys here have other views..personal preference

    3. A protein skimmer is a must have equipment ?ABSOULUTELY YES!!!!!!!!

    4. Keep hardy marine fishes and soft coral will likely to be success for my case i.e. for a 2 ft tank ?no hard and fast rule.. go for what u like..i.e... fishes and types of corals... just stay clear of more sensitive livestock..

    5. For now, I just need to put about 3 kg of live rock first and let the system run for about 3 weeks before adding another 3 kg of live rock. Maximum live rock for 16 gal tank is 8 kg. After that, I can progressively add slowly some soft corals and finally add fishes. Am I right to say that ?IMO.. go and get a bottle of liquified invertebrate food.. empty the contents inside and let the water to clear.. like that.. u have some form of bacteria form already.. then dump in the rocks.. perhaps like couple of pieces... using KG is very confusing.. as some rocks are more heavy.. then get the test kits to test the water parameters. if u dun want to buy them.. then wait lor.. wait for 10 days enuff..before u dump in the next batch.. and wait for another 10 more days to let the system get used to the bio-load.. then get the livestock
    [] all the best to your new tank
    Let us work together to preserve the world for our children to inherit by being responsible to our surroundings. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, bubbles and memories.

  14. #14
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    Doesnt sound like you did anything wrong... maybe you damn lucky lor... something unknown creature in your didnt survive and rotted lor...

    =P

    ----------------
    ice, he dump everything at one shot.. system crash coz the filter cannot cope with the bio-load...[:]
    Let us work together to preserve the world for our children to inherit by being responsible to our surroundings. Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, bubbles and memories.

  15. #15
    Wow, so much stuff to read and learn from!

    Anyway, Ivan, you mentioned the maximum is 8kg of LR - not really lah ... it's more like the recommended amount of LR per gallon (1-2 lb/gal), esp. for Berlin systems. For a small tank with high bioload (70% fish!), i think you did correctly by using a cannister filter instead of relying on LR filtration. So actually could have dried the dead LR and used as base rock, then let coralline grow by seeding with a little real LR and maybe some coralline encrusted snails or those that come with the corals you'd be getting. Also dun get too much LR ... if your tank is filled, then how the fish swim? [] K, talking rot, haha. Brain dead now.

    Regards,
    Hong Yee

  16. #16
    But I dumped 45kg at once and nothing happened lehz

    In fact I have quite a bit of unknown lifeforms on my rock... Hahaz... +

    Maybe I'm just lucky... =P

  17. #17
    ivan,

    Yeah, doesn't seem you did anything wrong. In fact, a friend of mine has more than 30 lbs of live rock in his 15 gal. He dumped it in in 2 halves cos the half the live rocks from the first half died during transportation. But even then, dumping lots of live rocks into a tank shouldn't pose any problems. Perhaps you could tell us the timeline of setting up the tank(ie. day 1-add water, day 2 add salt etc.).

    Naut

  18. #18
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    Ok the time step as follow:

    Day 1:

    day time -
    a. prep salt water and pour it into the tank.
    b. dump all the rock at a go.
    c. On filtration
    d. Pour one full bottle of baterial into the tank

    night time -
    a. water begin to clear up but not crystal clear

    bed time -
    a. realise some live organisms started dying. creepy worm start to creep out and some begin to die

    Day 2:

    early in morning-
    a. many worms and organism die off
    b. water clear but not to the extend of crystal clear

    evening time-
    a. have a great shock in my life !!!
    b. the house turn smelly
    c. water turn damn cloudy
    d. all worms and organisms die off.

    Basically, the above description has happened 3 occasions. within a month, because after 1st time failure, i retried again but still happen. The third attempt was still the same.

    I really wonder why ? Is my Eheim pump giving me problem ? Because the suction side was attached to a surface skimmer, providing surface skimming and suction at the bottom.

    Or it could be i have actually over load my filter with all the rocks.

    really heart pain...$$$



    [] Ivan

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    Read somewhere that adding air pump should help during the initial setup. The bacteria needs O2 for conversion of NH3 to NO2 to NO3.

    All those nitrifying will consume huge amount of O2 especially with the initial die-off. Lacking in O2 will cause everything to die in the tank including the nitrifying bacteria.

    Your canister filter probably don't give you any aeration unlike a wet/dry.

    BC

  20. #20
    Ivan,

    It seems that you commited the ultimate sin in reefkeeping - impatience. It's never a good idea to do the everything in one day. Firstly, tap water contains chlorine(dissolved), and it can only be gotten rid of if left overnight(minimum) or 2-3 days if you've a 2 feet tank. Well, chlorine is added to kil bacteria rite? So adding live rocks + bacteria to chlorinated water kinda defeats the purpose. I would think this was one of the biggest reason for the die off that you experienced. Secondly, the salinity level will tend to fluctuate immediately after adding salt due to undissolved salt and improper mixing, etc. Normally, there should be a 1-2 days buffer period before anything is added to the tank. Thirdly, pouring in the entire bottle of bacteria into chlorinated water will cause most of them to die.

    Maybe next time, take things slowly one step at a time. Try this,
    day 1 - add substrate/add water
    day 2 - do nothing...just leave your powerheads and filter running
    day 3 - add salt, wait for a few hours, then add ONE CAPFUL of bacteria
    day 4 - add HALF A CAPFUL bacteria and do nothing
    day 5 - add live rocks
    following this, you should leave the tank to cycle for about 2-3 weeks before adding fishes. During this period, there is no need to switch on the lights. Although the temptation is there to add fishes during this period of time(eg damsels), don't do it cos adding fishes will cause the fish to undergo tremendous stres during the initial ammonia/nitrite spikes. Not to mention that the fishes will normally be very territorial later on when you decide to add other fishes. Only way to solve it may be to shift the rocks around, but that would more or less bring about another mini-cycle.

    You can tell that the rock is dying in your case when lots of worm/copepods start swimming out of the rocks and also the appearance of "cobwebs" on your rocks. However, the former may not be always true cos some organisms do swim out of healthy live rock into the sandbed where they can do greater things there.

    Also, a tip for transporting live rock: put very wet(soaked in saltwater) newspaper on top of the rocks during transportation to minimise die off.

    I've smelt a tank with dying life rocks before, and i can understand how you feel when you return home to find your whole house stinks of that smell. Good luck in setting up your tank and this time, do not rush.

    Naut

    PS. sorry about the bold capfuls part. Was quite shocked to see that you actually poured in the WHOLE bottle of bacteria.

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