Snails/Shrimps cannot survive in tank

[baranne]

Hi guys,

Something that I have not been able to figure out for a while...

I have 2 tanks, a 1 ft cube and a 1.5ft tank. My 1.5ft tank has snails and shrimps and they are surviving and even breeding. However, I have never seen any snails in my 1ft cube. So both as a form of test and the fact that I had wanted to introduce some shrimps to the 1 ft cube, I put in some snails from my 1.5ft to the 1ft cube. Sort of like a test...

A few days later I would find the snails in the 1ft cube all dead, with shells left... I repeated the "experiment" a few times and I get the same results...

Any idea what could be causing this? I know this may be a "happy" problem for many people who likes to have a snail-free tank, but I am not able to add in shrimps to this tank. I recently added one cherry shrimp inside but it's dead...

Could gravel be a cause of it at all? Any ideas/experiences appreciated.

[Simon]

perharps you can start out listing the difference between the tanks, it will help narrow down the cause

[baranne]

As a matter of fact, after not being able to find the answer after all this while I just did a total revamp of the 1ft cube last weekend.

Basically I tore down everything, changed the plants. The only things that remain the same as previously are:

1. The internal filter
2. The gravel - not sure what kind it is, it's black and a bit shiny
3. Some of the pencil fishes that was previously in the same tank

Things that I took out:
1. Various plants
2. Various pieces of stones

Things that I added:
1. A DW from the 1.5ft tank

That was why I am thinking if gravel could be the cause.

After these 2 days, I can see some empty shells of the snails that I added over the weekend. There are some surviving snails but they do not look as alive as the ones in the 1.5ft tank. Maybe a few more days would be able to give me a better answer of whether some snails would survive after all.

[juggler]

How long have both tanks been around?
Do you have any fish in the 1ft cube before? What are they and how are they doing then and now?

Ever did a pH test in both tanks? If not acclimatised properly, putting fish from one tank to the other may be shocking to the fish if the pH is very different.

[baranne]

How long have both tanks been around?
Do you have any fish in the 1ft cube before? What are they and how are they doing then and now?

Ever did a pH test in both tanks? If not acclimatised properly, putting fish from one tank to the other may be shocking to the fish if the pH is very different.

The tanks are around 3 and 4 months old for the 1.5ft and 1ft tanks respectively.

I did have pencil fishes in the 1ft cube before and they were doing fine. I do not have any problems with the fishes, it's more of the snails and shrimps which I am puzzled. To be more accurate it's more of the snails as I did not dare to introduce any shrimps as I find the snails keep dying. I only tried with that one cherry that day.

The last time I did a pH of the 2 tanks, they were quite similar, around 6.8-7.2 (but I must say it's been a while since the fishes are doing fine). When I move the fishes from one tank to another I would acclimatise them like what I would if I were to add any new fishes.

[juggler]

Sorry I missed reading the pencil fishes in the 1ft cube...

Could they be the culprit and have eaten the snails? Since you said all is left are the empty shells.

[benny]

Your unidentified substrate could be leeching toxic metals into the water. Whilst it's a tolerable level to the fish. Shrimps and snails are a lot more sensitive and would survive.

Pencil fishes are know to nip at plants and other fauna when they are hungry. If the snails are small enough, there might also be a possibility that you don't feed the fishes enough, thus encouraging their predatory behaviour.

Cheers,

[baranne]

Sorry I missed reading the pencil fishes in the 1ft cube...

Could they be the culprit and have eaten the snails? Since you said all is left are the empty shells.

This I would have to investigate in the dark liao... see if I have pencils with alternative appetite

Never seen them "eating" snails when I observe them, though they will try to nib at any snails that falls, which is normal fish behaviour.

[baranne]

The gravel in question is below:



I just remembered something as well, could the substrate fertilizer be a contributing factor as well? In the setup, I think there could be a leak of the fertilizer to the water as I think I might have too thin a layer of top gravel.

[Justikanz]

I see one likely possibility... Copper poisoning...

Likely causes of copper introduction:

1) Is the tank second hand? If so, the previous owner could have introduced medication that contains copper. Some of the copper is could still be present in the tank. Copper is deadly to snails and shrimps...

2) Did you medicate the tank recently? Or in the beginning?

3) The 'stones' that you are removing could contain copper. Noticed that after you removed them, some of the snails managed to survive. Though rather poorly...

Try removing all the stones and do a water change. Maybe add some carbon for a couple of weeks.

My 2 cents... Cheers

[Johnc]

I agree with Justikanz... copper or lead is most likely cause. Highly unlikely to be the pencils. Could be your gravel or rock; or did you introduce some plants with the lead weight? That's a very common source of lead/copper poisoning that is often overlooked.

Ask your LFS for a couple of small ghost shrimps (they would probably give it to you for free) to test out the water when you have eliminated the possible cause. Introduce your cherries only if the ghost shrimps survive at least a week. (Remember to take out the GS though, unless you don't mind their being in there).

/John

[baranne]

Thanks all for your inputs!

I see one likely possibility... Copper poisoning...

Likely causes of copper introduction:

1) Is the tank second hand? If so, the previous owner could have introduced medication that contains copper. Some of the copper is could still be present in the tank. Copper is deadly to snails and shrimps...

2) Did you medicate the tank recently? Or in the beginning?

This is a new tank and I did not add any medication containing copper.

3) The 'stones' that you are removing could contain copper. Noticed that after you removed them, some of the snails managed to survive. Though rather poorly...

The stones were moved to my other tank which is full of shrimps and snails and so far, they seem alright.

or did you introduce some plants with the lead weight? That's a very common source of lead/copper poisoning that is often overlooked.

I have always taken out the lead weight when I introduce plants.

I think it could the leak of the fertilizers though. I did a full revamp of the tank over the weekend by washing the gravel clean and removing the mixed fertilizers in the gravel (I was using fertilizer sticks) and used back the same gravel.

After these few days, it seems that the snails are starting to be fine. So quite likely it is caused by the fertilizers. Probably it contains copper element?

I will probably do another water change this weekend and see if the situation improves.

[Justikanz]

Hmm... I am pretty sure something must be different between the 2 tanks. The ferts the same for the 2 tanks? Copper leakage from gravel/stones can take sometime... But if it is true, then the inverts in the other tank will suffer... Well, as long as they are fine now, no point to panic again. Good luck!

[baranne]

Hmm... I am pretty sure something must be different between the 2 tanks. The ferts the same for the 2 tanks? Copper leakage from gravel/stones can take sometime... But if it is true, then the inverts in the other tank will suffer... Well, as long as they are fine now, no point to panic again. Good luck!

Yup same fert in the 2 tanks.

I also hope the inverts will do fine, will monitor and hopefully no more casualties..

[Justikanz]

But the gravel was different? If so, confirm gravel... Unless you are doing something different to the 2 tanks. Pencils usually dun no much damage to inverts...

What about the positioning of the 2 tanks? Eh... But you did mention that the inverts are starting to do better in the tank ah... Hmm... *Strange*...

[baranne]

But the gravel was different? If so, confirm gravel... Unless you are doing something different to the 2 tanks. Pencils usually dun no much damage to inverts...

What about the positioning of the 2 tanks? Eh... But you did mention that the inverts are starting to do better in the tank ah... Hmm... *Strange*...

Yes, gravel is different in the 2 tanks (I have just posted a new thread on my 2 tanks for comments, you can take a look there too and maybe give me some comments on how to improve my tanks too. http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=14885)

Positioning = location of tanks?

The tank having problem is in my bedroom, no direct sunlight. The other tank is in my living room, no direct sunlight too.

Yes, it does seem that so far they are doing ok after I had washed the gravels... unless they start to die again in the next few days/weeks... then likely it would be caused by the gravel then.

[Justikanz]

The tanks look great. Except as mentioned, the fern is not aquatic and will die off...

The troubled tank is the bedroom eh? Perhaps you sprayed some stuff, eg. hairspray, perfume etc, near it and didn't noticed?

Anyway, I just hope that all's going to be well...

[|squee|]

It's a bit late.. but...

Please post shrimp-related questions in the fauna section Hope you guys understand... the Beginner's corner is only for planted tank newbies.

Cheers!

[baranne]

The tanks look great. Except as mentioned, the fern is not aquatic and will die off...

The troubled tank is the bedroom eh? Perhaps you sprayed some stuff, eg. hairspray, perfume etc, near it and didn't noticed?

Anyway, I just hope that all's going to be well...

Not aquatic? But I bought it from a LFS... ... Maybe I shall replace with others later.

It's more of a study room, so not such sprays. In any case, things seems to stabilise now. I added another 2 malaysan shrimps into the tank and saw one of them yesterday evening.

Please post shrimp-related questions in the fauna section Hope you guys understand... the Beginner's corner is only for planted tank newbies.

Sorry about this, did not realise it's specifically for planted only.

[|squee|]

No problems. In fact the administrator might just point out to me that this topic is fine in the Beginner's corner

I notice something with my shrimps though. Last year, I could acclimatise shrimps like I do with new fish and they'll survive just fine. Nowadays though, I have to acclimatise them over a period of days, and even then they still die on me.

Perhaps you can try out the drip method of acclimatising posted in the fauna section recently. That's what I'd be doing the next time I get Yamatos.