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Contrary to my beliefs in the EI system, i've come to experience firsthand that its actually caused by rocketing phosphate levels, i was adviced by a LFS back in perth to run a phosphate pad and it worked, somewhat..Originally Posted by |squee|
Can greenwater be caused by a lack of nutrients in the water?
Contrary to my beliefs in the EI system, i've come to experience firsthand that its actually caused by rocketing phosphate levels, i was adviced by a LFS back in perth to run a phosphate pad and it worked, somewhat..
All Men Die . . . . Few Actually Live.
Actually it's just too much ammonia. Do water change more regularly.
Cheers,
Andrew
But the more water you change the more GW just comes back.
It'll appear to somewhat go away, but it'll pop right back in a day.
All Men Die . . . . Few Actually Live.
You cannot water change away greenwater unless in very mild cases. It simply grows too fast for water change to be effective. UV/Diatom filter/Micron-filter would kill or remove it effectively.
PO4 is not the cause of greenwater....it is NH3/NH4. Bclee went havoc with it at about 20ppm or more and no issues.
Regards
Peter Gwee
Ok got it. Means I'm either I'm feeding too much or there's too much rotting plant matter. It's my Non-CO2-Tom-Barr-Style 4L tank filled with hairgrass and 3 Boraras Briggitae
I also like to pamper my fish with food, hence ammonia level rises more. What I did is simple.
Off my lights for 1-2 days after doing a water change. Over the 1-2 days, also do more water change. Maybe mine is mild like what Peter mentioned, but no harm trying.
Cheers,
Andrew
IMO, plant health is number one factor. Second is a trigger, namely ammonia.
Lack of nutrient in itself do not cause green water. But, if it is so that it affects plant health, it will cause your tank to be more prone to green water. It now takes an ammonia spike (particularly without healthy plants to suck it up) to trigger the green water.
BC
I'll gladly challenge you on that.
I have added extremely high PO4 but was never able to induce green water ever...........
I knew and checked my other parameters carefully to ensure the effect was not confounded by poor CO2, low NO3, new tank etc.
If what you claim is true, then why can I not induce green water, nor ever have with high PO4?
I've done this for well over a decade as have many other folks.
Now why have so many not found that to be true but you have?
You should look elsewhere.............because something is confounding things.
How is it possible that so many folks dose high PO4 and never get Green water for many years but you did and claim PO4 causes GW?
Where is my green water?
Regards,
Tom Barr
Last edited by Plantbrain; 18th Oct 2005 at 13:12.
Once the NH4 is added and then removed by plants and algae, you cannot get rid of the algae by limiting the PO4. You can beat it back, but not get rid of it unless it is a mild case/lower light.
NH4 induces the GW, it does not have to be continuely present after the GW is induced. That's what fooled hobbyists. They looked at the PO4/NO3, and not what was happening that caused it to bloom.
I added NH4 on purpose and then measured the NH4 and NO3/PO4.
Next I added only NO3/PO4(no GW).
Once present, it'll hang on for dear life.
You can test this with a very accurate NH4 colorimeter and you can dose high levels of both PO4/NO3 and never get GW, but adding a small amount of NH4 for roughly 24-36 hours at high light will induce GW.
Healthy well run planted tanks do not get GW.
New tanks and overload fish loads will cause algae/GW.
Wonder why?
Think what else is missing and why we cannot have more and more fish to supply the N and P for the plants.
Think about that for awhile.
I can easily add 50-75ppm of NO3, 3-5ppm of PO4, all bioavilable inorganic forms, lots of light(say 2 to 6w'gal of PC lighting)/CO2/Traces(say 1-2ppm of Fe as proxy for traces), GH etc but cannot induce algae in a planted tank.
Now what other factor would an overloaded tank respond to that all the inorganic forms of do not unless we add inorganic NH4 as well?
If I add NH4, then I get algae, and GW.
This effectively rules out everything but NH4.
The organic components(fish waste) also seem to induce Staghorn(Compsopogon sp), Oedogonium and perhaps a few other minor blooms.
These observations and test fit very well with what we can measure, induce and test.
I know of very few people that induce algae on purpose in the hobby.
GW is an ideal model since it does no harm to plants and is easily removed with a UV sterilizer. I do research on aquatic weeds and algae professionally in academia so I'm not your run of the mill hobbyist.
In parting, I am not attacking you personally, just the myth and trying to help you and many other hobbyists understand why we have algae and good/poor plant growth etc in our aquariums.
Then folks focus much more on scaping and less on algae, and more and more hobbyists are able to help new folks better understand and have more success at this.
Regards,
Tom Barr
www.BarrReport.com
wow, i m enlightened....so the cause for GW is NH4. point taken, so i ll also not worry abt the additional PO4 that i always worry when adding in salt form. Thanks
Holy is the Lord, God Almighty ! The Earth is filled with His Glory !
90 x 50 x 50 cm tank: Eheim 2217; ANS CO2 Solenoid with 60mm intense bazooka; Zetlight 6400; Teco 500 Chiller; Borneo Wild Steel inlet/outlet
Ferts: Dry Mixture/Dr Mallicks. Temp: 26 degrees Substrate: ADA Amazonia
So, I have this 4L non-CO2 tank filled with hairgrass and green water. I suppose I must do a blackout then?
Use UV or start over. Its a very small tank anyway. Next time, add mulm to the substrate and get a small filter (add mulm to it as well). Pack the tank with as much plants as you can stuff in there. Don't move things around and if needed, do a large water change after that.
Regards
Peter Gwee
Wah lan.
Kena slam left right centre by barr. Grumbles..
I stand corrected then.
Tom, you've always recommended 30-45ppm of c02 and ample nutrients for prevention of algae, what if we exceed that 30-45 range? Fauna aside of course. Would it be the same or detrimental?
I'm asking this because i'm using ADA soil so i'm having problems reading ph/kh levels to id my c02 ppm levels. Thus i blast my 20gal tank with 4-5bps, little fauna so they're fine, and as i've read from your research you've OVERdosed with no effects. So i've been OD-ing even according to your EI. For some strange reason i'm still getting spot algae on the glass and green dust. I figured it was bottoming po4 so once again i added even more po4 than recommended in EI. Yet it stays.
Are you saying that once algae comes, even if levels are right, they won't go away?
All Men Die . . . . Few Actually Live.
how is the green water?
Cheers,
Andrew
I'm currently leaving the lights off. Might contemplate covering the tank with a thrashbag if things don't improve. It's a non-CO2 tank, have to wait
Interesting. Tom, please shed some light.
colin | The Wilderness and Forest | FTS
Jerome, don't pay too much attention to the pH/KH anymore. Focus on the plants and critter response. Add more CO2 slowly (increase the rate by 10-20% of the current rate per week till you get good growth aka pearling or when the critters start to show signs of stress and then back off.) and shut it off at night. Make sure there is some surface movement but not a lot. If you do the EI, all that is left is CO2 and your main focus.
Regards
Peter Gwee
I went around ans around with some tanks with GW even though we ran UV's etc. The issue was there was simply not enough biomedia for the tiny filter to stop the GW via NH4.Use UV or start over. Its a very small tank anyway. Next time, add mulm to the substrate and get a small filter (add mulm to it as well). Pack the tank with as much plants as you can stuff in there. Don't move things around and if needed, do a large water change after that.
Regards
Peter Gwee
When we added plenty of biomedia, the GW never came back. We messed with that tank for nearly 2 years trying everything.
A large water change, a complete one at that, and do this for daily or every other day plus add more biomedia in might do it without need to use UV etc.
Regards,
Tom Barr
www.BarrReport.com
Well, it's never personal with me.
I just try and help folks and rule issues out for them.
[quote]
Tom, you've always recommended 30-45ppm of c02 and ample nutrients for prevention of algae, what if we exceed that 30-45 range? Fauna aside of course. Would it be the same or detrimental?
[quote]
Some things (Bacteria), not plants, can have negative responses to high CO2, I turn mine off at night and always have.
No, some algae will, such as GW and few others are tough to remove, but with pruning, siphoning etc, you can remove most any algae issues by a very simple method.I'm asking this because i'm using ADA soil so i'm having problems reading ph/kh levels to id my c02 ppm levels. Thus i blast my 20gal tank with 4-5bps, little fauna so they're fine, and as i've read from your research you've OVERdosed with no effects. So i've been OD-ing even according to your EI. For some strange reason i'm still getting spot algae on the glass and green dust. I figured it was bottoming po4 so once again i added even more po4 than recommended in EI. Yet it stays.
Are you saying that once algae comes, even if levels are right, they won't go away?
Scrape, prune and scrub good, get all of it that you can. Then do a water change right away. Add ferts back, crank CO2 etc.
Algae(and the plants) are much more useful, than test kits for things like good CO2 levels.
Amano definitely uses this approach.
I've always said watch the plants, not the test kits as you main indicator.
So it would seem Amano and myself give the same advice in many ways.
You can find the CO2 using peat or ADA soils by a back door method, but most don't nor do I think it's really needed.
I just suggest adding a little bit more once every 4-7 days till you no longer have green spot if the PO4/KNO3/TE are in good shape.
You'll hit a level where the Green spot stops growing. I have not had green spot issues for many years.
Regards,
Tom Barr
www.BarrReport.com
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