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Thread: B. hexazona a strain of B. pentazona?

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    B. hexazona a strain of B. pentazona?

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    Would the gurus answer this question for me? I've seen several books where hexazona is called pentazona. And I'm pretty sure they're hexazona. 1st stripe at the tail, last stripe down the eye. No breaks along the stripes.

    So, What does this mean they're the same species but of different strains? or are the strains different enough to warrant it's own species? Also, spoke to michael lee from MAD Tanks. He says the 5 banded strain is found in johor. The 6 banded strain is singaporean.

    But since they've been seperated from each other for the last god knows how many hundered thousand years. There should be a distinct genetic difference. ESPECIALLY because there's an extra band... pentazona lacks the tail stripe.

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    They are distinct species in their own right. Not a strain of either.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    Darn the books! Darn them all to heck!

    Ok, seriously dude, are you sure? I can't imagine how they'd let a huge print error like that get through...

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    what do you mean? they all have the same bands, except pentazona has a blotch under the dorsal fin which is lacking in hexazona.

    also hexazona appears to range throughout Malaya (including Singapore) and Kalimantan/Borneo (I think north of Kuching) while Pentazona ranges throughout Malaya and Sumatra (but not recorded from Singapore) and also in Kalimantan/Borneo (but not overlapping in range with hexazona).

    don't believe anything BOOKS says, unless it is a scientific paper. even then, this group of fishes are poorly studied. I have personally seen population where the dorsal spot varies in size from big to almost non-existence.

    also hexazona from Singapore, and those from Pontian are quite different looking, yet similar to those from Tj Malim.

    you got a pix of your pentazona? not sure what you mean by "extra band"
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Quote Originally Posted by XnSdVd
    Darn the books! Darn them all to heck!

    Ok, seriously dude, are you sure? I can't imagine how they'd let a huge print error like that get through...

    not a print error, just ignorance or perhaps lack of definitive information. what? you think these books are written by scientists? even scientists make mistakes
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Choy, post up the images of both pentazona and hexazona for comparison lah.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    btw where you get the "B." from? It is either "P." for Puntius or S. for Systomus (depending which school of thought you prefer to follow).

    if those books uses "B." as in Barbus, well, you should dump them down the chutes
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    pardon the pix quality, these are rather old pix and not very well taken.
    OK, this is a Systomus hexazona wild-caught in Singapore (ignore the label on the photo, it is WRONG!)





    and this is a Systomus pentazona

    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Stupid book... Thanks for the explaination choy The pic in the book showed something like a cross between the two. Essentially it looked like a pentazona without the blotch.

    Also, the body structure of hexazona looks very different from the ones i used to have. Does this vary from region to region? Or is the pic in your post of a young fish?

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    The body form slightly varies amongst the hexazona populations. I still have a few healthy ones in my 2ft tank and they're huge! Too much worms I think.
    Anyway these were said to be Malaysian in origin so I won't be surprised if they're of the Johore population.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    my single specimen just died unexpectedly this is the one from Pontian which is more glittery but less red, and seem to be larger in size.

    the Singapore ones I had, and those I have seen attributed to Tj Malim, are smaller, redder and less glittery.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Choy, those I bought from an LFS at Bt Timah Plaza some time back turned very glittery in the black bands and are of an intense orange-red colour in my tank. I found a contaminant piece in a batch of rhomboocellatus from CS and that fella isn't glittery. The rhombos that I brought back are still very glittery though.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    maybe I should clarify, it is not that the glittery ones (and these seem to be bigger and deeper bodied) are not red, they are red in a different way from the non-glittery ones. I don't think they are male/female forms either because both forms has individuals with red or clear fins which I assume to be sexual dimorphism.

    do you see the same characteristics with yours, stormhawki?
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    But how much does body structure vary within the singaporean population? That and since you brought it up. Why is it most books refer to them as Barbus? Oh and Is Boraras the proper genus for rasboras? And would you mind explaining the difference between puntius and systomus? And is johorensis a seperate species or the old name?

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    That's all history... Books are not as updated... If you read the books and mags, you will slowly be bathed in the history of the ichthyology... Picking things up along the way...

    If I did not recall wrongly:

    Most, if not all, barbs start with Barbus, then some ichthyologists developed the genus Punitus etc to classify the fish better within the family. Same thing with the Rasboras, the Boraras genus name is relatively new and is reserved for the smaller rasboras now known as the Boraras...

    Same thing with chichlids, but they are more confusing. Simpler ones like how Apistogramma ramirezi (Ram) becomes Papilochromis ramirezi, then becomes Mic(k)rogeophagus ramirezi... Confusing ones like how a lot of the larger cichlids used to be Cichlasoma spp.. Then they were split to more dedicated Heros, Thorichthys, Vieja etc...

    Choy, ok?
    Read me! :bigsmile: http://justikanz.blogspot.com/

    I'm crypt collecting... Starting cheap, now have Cryptocoryne beckettii, C.beckettii var petchii, C.crispatula var.balansae, C.griffithii(Melted! ), C.nurii, C.parva, C.pygmaea(Melted! ), C.tonkinensis(Melted! ), C.walkeri, C.wendtii 'Brown', C.wendtii 'Green', C.wendtii 'Green Gecko', C.wendtii 'Tropica' and Cryptocoryne x willisii

    Oh, juggling is hard work, man!...

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    It comes with ease as you read... The key is to read, read and read... And books are definitely outdated. Magazines are more updated but the best are the journals for ichthyology...

    Oh, btw, those I mentioned are just a tip of the iceberg...
    Read me! :bigsmile: http://justikanz.blogspot.com/

    I'm crypt collecting... Starting cheap, now have Cryptocoryne beckettii, C.beckettii var petchii, C.crispatula var.balansae, C.griffithii(Melted! ), C.nurii, C.parva, C.pygmaea(Melted! ), C.tonkinensis(Melted! ), C.walkeri, C.wendtii 'Brown', C.wendtii 'Green', C.wendtii 'Green Gecko', C.wendtii 'Tropica' and Cryptocoryne x willisii

    Oh, juggling is hard work, man!...

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    But where would I find these books? All I have is that one by BP and the science centre...

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    Books ah? Everywhere lah... Bookstores lor... Can grab some stuff from Kino, Times, MPH or even from some LFS... Good to have the Axelrod's Atlas, but be warned, it is expensive and they need regular updating... Now it is at Version 10 liao wor...

    It is always good to have at least 1 on hand... I have at least 17 books on fish, plants and scapes...

    Oh, and some can look very simple, like pictorial books, but they might woth buying... Oh, avoid lousy books such as the 'Du**ies' series... I always look out for simple info to check if the book is worth buying. I had seen 1 that state clownfish are freshwater fish...

    Get the newest edition, use Boraras as a guide, for example.

    Happy book shopping...
    Read me! :bigsmile: http://justikanz.blogspot.com/

    I'm crypt collecting... Starting cheap, now have Cryptocoryne beckettii, C.beckettii var petchii, C.crispatula var.balansae, C.griffithii(Melted! ), C.nurii, C.parva, C.pygmaea(Melted! ), C.tonkinensis(Melted! ), C.walkeri, C.wendtii 'Brown', C.wendtii 'Green', C.wendtii 'Green Gecko', C.wendtii 'Tropica' and Cryptocoryne x willisii

    Oh, juggling is hard work, man!...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by XnSdVd
    But how much does body structure vary within the singaporean population? That and since you brought it up. Why is it most books refer to them as Barbus? Oh and Is Boraras the proper genus for rasboras? And would you mind explaining the difference between puntius and systomus? And is johorensis a seperate species or the old name?

    from what I have seen there appears to be two main forms of hexazona.

    Barbus generally refers to members in Europe and Africa, while Puntius is applied to Asian species. Both genera are probably not monophyletic (meaning they should be split into smaller groupings to reveal the inter-relatedness of their members).

    Similarly with Rasbora, some members has been taken out and assigned to new genus, for example:
    • the group of small fishes now assigned to Boraras
    • a single species of small fish now assigned to Sundadanio axelrodi
    • the group of fishes containing the Harlequin Rasbora, now assigned to Trigonostigma


    as I have said, read scientific description papers, rather than books. the papers are the definitive (although still open to debate and arguments ) sources.

    you can start from here http://rmbr.nus.edu.sg/rbz/biblio/#1
    BTW you need to edit your signature, the harlequin is Trigonostigma heteromorpha
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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