Questions, questions, questions. Beginner at work...

[PeterGwee]

standoyo, high CO2 does not kill BBA! It just stops it from growing. Once that is done, all you have to do is to remove it physically and make sure your CO2 rate is consistent. Folks that use disc need to make sure they clean it very often once it starts to clog (CO2 level drops and that triggers BBA.). Doing the faith CO2 dosing by upping the bubble rate slowly till the fish act funny and then back off a bit to the safe level allows you to hit high excess with no issues to fish. (You need some surface movement along with this method and be around the whole whenever you up the rate slowly. Up the rate say 1bps to 1.1-1.2bps and then monitor for the critters carefully...not upping throughout the whole day!).

Circulation is important in bringing nutrients across to the plants and you should never sacrifice it for lowering the surface movement (some is good anyway). A spraybar along the bottom rear back pointing forward is a good way of sending high even current to the tank with creating much surface turbulence. (Vinz has done it...ask him.). Using the CO2 misting method also allows you to view where the current is getting to and not. Just improve the mixing in whatever way you like till you get the mist to cover all parts of the tank as best as you can. (good circulation throughout.).

BBA comes in whenever your CO2 dips or whenever it goes up/down during the photoperiod. Upping the CO2 won't kill it but will stop the growth if its indeed that high but care must taken to make sure the fish are not stressed. ADD CO2 ONLY DURING THE PHOTOPERIOD AND SHUT IT OFF AT NIGHT!

Regards
Peter Gwee

[PeterGwee]

Hi Peter, my plants aren't really pearling (like 7up) yet, although I do see stomata in action (bubbles forming on the Java Moss). Just to check, what is DO? My bogwood & rocks have not succumbed to BBA yet but its just the leaves on some of my plants.

Also I would be decommisioning one of my canister filters (currently using 2 x Jebao 918 @ 1200l/hr for each individual filter (2 x 1200l/hr) however I am using a 4.8~5.0ft tank. Would that one filter be sufficient.

Also, my other question that I have is when is the right time to clean the filter and how does one go about doing so without killing the good bacteria?

DO = Dissolved Oxygen in water

Do not decommision your other filter. Use 2 of them but make changes to your flow pattern since the tank is big and circulation is more of an issue as the tank gets bigger. Use spraybars along the entire rear-back of the tank just above the substrate pointing the outlets forward to the front of the tank (if the substrate is sloped, just point the outlet level to the substrate.). For each filter, position the inlet at the each back corners and then the outlets to spraybars (use a vertical bar and elbows to get the outlet flow down to the spraybar at the bottom rear. Drill 1 or 2 small holes on the vertical bar near the surface of the water to get some surface movement going.). Each spraybar should take about 2.25-2.5 ft of the tank length.

For the CO2, consider the CO2 misting method (easy to check if the CO2 is well circulated or not since its visual) using either 2-3 diffusers (clean it often) or feeding CO2 to multiple powerheads with spraybars (flow pattern similar to the filter setups).

Regards
Peter Gwee

[grey_fox]

DO = Dissolved Oxygen in water

Do not decommision your other filter. Use 2 of them but make changes to your flow pattern since the tank is big and circulation is more of an issue as the tank gets bigger. Use spraybars along the entire rear-back of the tank just above the substrate pointing the outlets forward to the front of the tank (if the substrate is sloped, just point the outlet level to the substrate.). For each filter, position the inlet at the each back corners and then the outlets to spraybars (use a vertical bar and elbows to get the outlet flow down to the spraybar at the bottom rear. Drill 1 or 2 small holes on the vertical bar near the surface of the water to get some surface movement going.). Each spraybar should take about 2.25-2.5 ft of the tank length.

For the CO2, consider the CO2 misting method (easy to check if the CO2 is well circulated or not since its visual) using either 2-3 diffusers (clean it often) or feeding CO2 to multiple powerheads with spraybars (flow pattern similar to the filter setups).

Regards
Peter Gwee

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input. I can't quite visualise the layout you mentioned.

1. To bring the spray bars all the way to the bottom and face them to the front of the tank + drill 2 x small holes at the top for water-surface agitation (so water flow from the spray bars is from the back slope to the front)
2. To place the inlet bars at each corners.
3. To have the CO2 diffuser right at the centre.

Would this be correct?

I am using one of the canisters with 3 Bio balls, should I revert it back to the diffuser or from the extension from the canister with the 3 bio balls replace the current elbow and have an extension that leads to a spray back and lay it out at the bottom too?

Would this provide a better CO2 distribution?

[StanChung]

standoyo, high CO2 does not kill BBA! It just stops it from growing.

BBA comes in whenever your CO2 dips or whenever it goes up/down during the photoperiod. Upping the CO2 won't kill it but will stop the growth...

Regards
Peter Gwee

i have tried this method but it doesn't work for me. so i'm not saying anymore because obviously it works for a lot of people here.


i firmly believe it's ammonia, lack of co2 and other essential nutrient and the big factor is high light. not discounting some other mysterious elements.

peter, you don't think 8X flowrate per hour is too much? the eheim website recommends ~1-2x flowrate only for it's canisters...http://www.eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/en...ail_24523_ehen

4X is already much higher than recommended there. anyways greyfox can tell us...

[PeterGwee]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input. I can't quite visualise the layout you mentioned.

1. To bring the spray bars all the way to the bottom and face them to the front of the tank + drill 2 x small holes at the top for water-surface agitation (so water flow from the spray bars is from the back slope to the front)
2. To place the inlet bars at each corners.
3. To have the CO2 diffuser right at the centre.

Would this be correct?

The method is really for an inline reactor with the filter. For a diffuser, you would need to place the spraybar vertically which will give you some surface movement with the hole near the surface and the rest to push the mist from the diffuser around the tank (place the diffuser along the path of the filter outlet current down low.). Play around with the flow pattern so as to get the mist around the whole tank especially the plants. You would need about 2-3 diffusers to do it well.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[PeterGwee]

i have tried this method but it doesn't work for me. so i'm not saying anymore because obviously it works for a lot of people here.


i firmly believe it's ammonia, lack of co2 and other essential nutrient and the big factor is high light. not discounting some other mysterious elements.

You are not doing something right or you have way too many fishes in one tank. Do you have any surface movement to go along with the incremental method? Shut off the CO2 at night? Use the mist? Make sure that the tank circulation is good? (Using mist helps since you can visually check it.).

peter, you don't think 8X flowrate per hour is too much? the eheim website recommends ~1-2x flowrate only for it's canisters...http://www.eheim.de/eheim/inhalte/en...ail_24523_ehen

4X is already much higher than recommended there. anyways greyfox can tell us...

A tank with no plants...maybe 1-2x is enough since there is less restriction. A spraybar outlet spreads out the current better and placing it at the bottom back rear allows massive current with less issues on the plants.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[valice]

I concur that 1-2x the flowrate is for empty tanks... For densely populated planted tanks like ours, there is alot of obstractions... In addition, we like to hide our inlets or outlet tubes behind plants, it would indirectly reduce the flowrate...

In addition, if you have a packed filter media with bio, and mechanical in it, the flowrate again drops... Plus the height differential between the tank and the filter plays a part too...

It is always better to over filter rather than underfilter... I get more worried that I see suspending stuff in my tank and not moving than to see a "whirlpool"...

[grey_fox]

A tank with no plants...maybe 1-2x is enough since there is less restriction. A spraybar outlet spreads out the current better and placing it at the bottom back rear allows massive current with less issues on the plants.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Hi Peter,

Having the spraybar situated at the back would be good but wouldn't that start blowing the muck, plants, etc? Also from what I can tell, my plants are growing rather well with the T5 lights installed, they look healthy now. However as mentioned, not much or no visible pearling can be seen.

My tank has surface agitation but I just find it a bit too strong as my spray bar right now (for the filter without the diffuser) is situated at the top. The other filter carries the CO2 diffuser with the bio balls.

Also I read through this http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=13643 does that do any good? I feel that my CO2 circulation is not very good. Would it be better if I put more Bio balls in (as recommended by the LFS near my place - she has 5 bioballs, 3 big 2 small) and I don't see any visible bubbles coming out from the output. In my setup I do see visible CO2 bubbles (at the water surface) where the diffuser is. Would this be due to the improper mixture of the CO2 from my filter's output to the diffuser with the bio balls?

Lastly, my water quality is not as clear as I hope it would be. It is not cloudy but what I can see are little particles (be it uneaten food or blown up muck) should I invest in better filter media (or filter? - I am looking at the Eheim Professional 3 - think 1 of that would be sufficient yeah? Recommendations from your experienced hands & minds would definitely do me good.) (by the way I have not touched the canister filters over a period of 4 weeks; wonder if it is time to do a bit of clean up). I also understand for the posts here that in order for the beneficial bacteria to 'stay alive' during this clean up period of the filters, I should use the aged water in my tank to do the washing.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[|squee|]

If you find it too strong (water surface rippling obviously) then lower the angle of the rainbar "stream of water", or change it to vertical, placed along a corner of your tank.

Regarding Tom's internal reactor, it's tested and proven. It still works, even though nowadays people are changing to diffusors (because of Tom's new discovery...) . The key to making this reactor work is to have good water distribution throughout the tank. I don't understand this question:
"Would this be due to the improper mixture of the CO2 from my filter's output to the diffuser with the bio balls?"

You might have to clean up if your sponges are clogged from muck in the first few weeks of setup. If not, get finer filter wool. Ask the LFS for advice.

Yes you're right in using aged water to wash your filter. But if youare washing only the sponges, it's okay to use tap water. Most of the BB(beneficial bacteria) will be in your biological media and in the tank itself.

[grey_fox]

If you find it too strong (water surface rippling obviously) then lower the angle of the rainbar "stream of water", or change it to vertical, placed along a corner of your tank.

Regarding Tom's internal reactor, it's tested and proven. It still works, even though nowadays people are changing to diffusors (because of Tom's new discovery...) . The key to making this reactor work is to have good water distribution throughout the tank. I don't understand this question:
"Would this be due to the improper mixture of the CO2 from my filter's output to the diffuser with the bio balls?"

You might have to clean up if your sponges are clogged from muck in the first few weeks of setup. If not, get finer filter wool. Ask the LFS for advice.

Yes you're right in using aged water to wash your filter. But if youare washing only the sponges, it's okay to use tap water. Most of the BB(beneficial bacteria) will be in your biological media and in the tank itself.

In bold would mean that my canister filter is connecter to a diffuser (those with the bio balls) and thus, when the water is being blown back in by the output I can see CO2 bubble along with it. Would that mean that the diffusion in the diffuser + bio balls are not good enough? Heh, hopefully you can picture what I am trying to say.

Also, I believe that I must do a clean up of the filters (believe that the wool must be clogged up) I guess for the rest of the media, ceremic rings, carbon & those small black bio-balls, I won't wash those. Depending on the smell of the filter (really stale smell) I might have to replace the filter wool correct? Additionally, what I would need to do is to find a way to have a better water-flow and think of where I can position the spray bar(s).

I will also add the latest picture in once I take it.

As mentioned my plants are indeed growing better than ever. Just that the water quality can be better

Still, I'm learning something new everyday from you guys. Really appreciate the help/assistance/advise I've been receiving.

[grey_fox]

As promised, this is the latest snapshot of my tank.

[|squee|]

Looking good!

I think you meant reactor instead. It's called a reactor, a diffusor is a white ceramic disc device, very much like a very good airstone.

Stale smells aren't good. =/ What's causing the smell?

[grey_fox]

Thank you |squee| but believe there's space/room for lots of improvements. Picture too small or else can see the e. tellenus (hope I spelt it correctly) is growing rather well, lots of plantlets sprouting after the light change and the nana now has what looks like a shoot with a flower too.

Oh :P Didn't know it's known as a reactor, my apologies for all the confusion. So basically my canister sucks in the water, goes through the media and CO2 & water mixes and goes through the output, however I still can see CO2 bubbles, would that mean that the reactor needs more bio balls in order to do a even proper mix & distribution?

I intend to have the output from the reactor changed to a spray bar. Hopefully this would help spread the CO2 more evenly.

I mean no smell yet, I'll be cleaning the canisters tomorrow, so if I do encounter any smells, I should change the filter wool yeah?

I feed my fishes twice daily and a small amount.

Currently this is the bioload of my tank.

60 neon tetras
4 rummy nose
2 holland ram
10 malayan shirmps (5 fell victim to my congo...)
8 yamato (growing rather large, some blue some reddish)
5 'fresh water' prawns.
4 S.A.E
4 Otos
6 Corys
2 erm 'glass-cleaners' (they look like solefish but are actually plecos, don't really know what they are but they clean the glass good)
6 black widows
3 cherry barbs
2 congos
2 black phantoms
2 'red' phantoms
2 neon rainbow fishes
4 leopard danios
and
2 zebra danios

Too much load I am having?

Plus all the flora there. Btw, I was at Serangoon North today and bought Seachem trace, potassium & iron. Anything else I am missing?

When I do the water change tomorrow, I will add in the ferts as per instructed on the bottle. Also, I've only seen 1 plant pearl before and only for 5 minutes, :P

Wonder what else must I do to see the plants pearl successfully.....

[|squee|]

If you encounter a disgusting smell, the BB in the filter is all dead long ago.

I do not know about the bioballs... perhaps someone else can help you.

Well you're missing Nitrogen. Phosphorous can be omitted because of your fish load.

[PeterGwee]

Phosphorous can be omitted because of your fish load.

No! Maybe less KNO3 but definitely not the PO4.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[grey_fox]

No! Maybe less KNO3 but definitely not the PO4.

Regards
Peter Gwee

KNO3 = Potassium Nitrate?
PO4 = Phosphates?

So I bought the wrong stuff?

[grey_fox]

Just did my canister filter wash and added in a surface skimmer, 30 mins and no more protein layer

Also the filters were exteremly filthy but no bad smell, replaced the filter wool as it was beyond the washing, too filthy.

Bathed the ceramic rings, activated carbon & bio balls in the aged water and re-positioned the spray bars to the bottom, lesser surface agitation and must cleaner looking water.

Changed about 35-40% of the water and added in trace elements, potassium and iron into the replaced water.

Hope I did things right this time round

[grey_fox]

Just to ask, is 8 x 54W T5 tubes too powerful for my 5 ft tank?

[StanChung]

You are not doing something right or you have way too many fishes in one tank. Do you have any surface movement to go along with the incremental method? Shut off the CO2 at night? Use the mist? Make sure that the tank circulation is good? (Using mist helps since you can visually check it.).


Regards
Peter Gwee

i def was not doing something right despite the glamour expensive fert/equipment etc...i can tell straight away.

i had a small tank[100l] with co2 injection 5 bubbles ps, solenoid, timer
12 hr photo period. 100 l with like 5 bubble per second.
fishless[any fish i put in there gasps...] supposed to be plant nursery.
72 w of ADA pl light. co2 reactor-bubble counter etc, base fert dennerle, top grey lapis, and ADA multi long bottom, 'azoo red balls' and some root monster. an ecco [the tallest one]
plants are glosso, hg, limno aquatica, c balansae, downoi, b, japonica, weeping moss etc. the treatment period for the bg which is covered with bba is one week but no improvement. so i scrapped the tank and the bg.

this tank was doing well[except for the glosso] till i upped the light from 40w to 72w.
at 40 w the co 2 was like 1 bubble per second. few problems and fish can live in it but glosso doesn't grow well in it. light too low. [the height is 2ft]

normally if there was bba infestation...the hands go in to scrape the wc then redose fert. check whatever... everything is functioning. i don't increase co2 because it's always enough unless there's malfunction/tank empty/low pressure. and they bba only comes back when another time of neglect or malfunction appears.
i only upped the co2 after reading about upping the co2 to stop/control bba growth somewhere...had to take all the fish out. shrimps were jumping out!

in this case the bba was on the black poly bg. can't really scrape it without damaging the bg so i just scrapped the tank.

the question is, how come plants in nature can do reasonably well without co2 injection? is tom barr's venturi design co2 reactor a clue? my guess is normal air gets into a wash.[fine bubbles] these bubbles get trapped underneath the leaves of plants in rivers-supplying them co2? make sense? but in tank conditions, in my experience the plants look so so only... like in some parts of nature perhaps. torn here and there, soaked in mud and more brown than green. haha.
-------
what i think is grey fox need to sort out the other things before he ups the co2. 4-5 bubbles a sec is a lot already IMO. upping it a little can't hurt but doubt it will solve his bba issues without sorting the other matters like flowrate, temp, etc. just my opinion.

[StanChung]

must have been dreaming, missed the very nice pix...good job. hahaha.

doesn't look like you got bba problem at all. sigh...

all that ranting...getting old nia.

if the co2 bubbles gets blown out from the reactor... it could be due to co2 saturation in the water. meaning no more co2 can dissolve in the water properly...