Comments on non-CO2 planted tank

[joe]

I'm gonna embark on a big tank using non-CO2 method. The reason being many of us here do not simply have time to do weekly water change and
I believe (and tested) that non-CO2 tanks can be as beautiful as CO2 tanks. I've had the following tank for 2 years and did not once perform a
water change except for water topups weekly and as-and-when-I-like traces dosing. Hell I can't even recall what I dose Here is the tank from
the start to the final scape which I'm real proud of

Tank when it first started


Tank after 2 years of "neglect"


I've read both DW article and also Tom Barr's "modified" method on non-CO2 tanks.
- DW's method proposes not dosing any fertilisers at all and depending only on fish food/waste and topping up of water.
- Tom's method is similiar but adds a bit of ferts and minimal WC infrequently.
- Both recommend high plant mass.

For a start, I would like to find out from the local forumers if anyone has tried their methods before. If you have, let us know your results
and how it was achieved I'm sure many people are waiting to come to the 'dark side'

[|squee|]

I've tried using Tom's method. 2ft tank, 36W lighting, crypts and moss en-masse with a big bunch of narrow leaf java fern, and a medium fish load. No water changes except top-ups, internal filter to provide good water circulation, weekly (sometimes bi-weekly) sprinkling of KNO3 and KH2PO4 and seachem equilbrium.

No algae except for stiff strands on some parts of my moss. Damn easy to maintain!

[joe]

Nice going squee!!! How long has it been going? Any pictures to let us drool on?

[|squee|]

Definately not droolworthy. If I were to do this tank again, I'd have one that was more biotope-looking.



It's no longer around, I sold the entire tank set to another forummer. Basically really low-maintainence, I don't even remember trimming it in its short life of 2 or 3 months.

P.S. Yes, those brown spots in the moss foreground are staghorn, result of overfeeding and probably too thick moss.

[benny]

Joe,

You failed to mention that the lovely tank of yours was actually in an air condition environment. I think that setups in air conditioned environments seems to do better due to the lower temperature and hence the enhanced oxygen carrying capacity of the water.

To be honest, my 5 ft have no more CO2 injectiion for a year and no algae. No water change or fertilization either. The tank is a total mess over flowing with plants. Just ask ranmasatome or CK Yeo. It's not a planted tank, but a tank holding plants.

Cheers,

[joe]

Yep tha above tank was kept in office at a temp hovering between 21 to 25 degress celsius. Temperature is an important parameter but I do not see this parameter being mentioned in both DW or Tom's article. Any comments?

[benny]

Yep tha above tank was kept in office at a temp hovering between 21 to 25 degress celsius. Temperature is an important parameter but I do not see this parameter being mentioned in both DW or Tom's article. Any comments?

Maybe, in their climate, it's not an important parameter as ambient temperature hardly goes up to 33 degrees celcius.

Cheers,

[|squee|]

I agree. Lol, some even use heaters!

Water flow and temperature are important in a non-CO2 tank imho, perhaps even more important than they would be in a CO2-enriched tank.

The bad thing is how slowly everything grows. Most of us aren't that patient.

[joe]

The bad thing is how slowly everything grows. Most of us aren't that patient.

Yep perhaps can train our patience too hehehhee ... lets see who else has done this before ... I'm pretty sure there are more people from the dark side

[PeterGwee]

The main thing of non-CO2 method is to drive the CO2 down to very low levels or even zero from plant growth such that it limits algae. Keeping the CO2 up in a non-CO2 tank drive algae growth since they react faster than plants do to changes. Most algae are bad bi-carbonate users and hence driving the CO2 down to zero from plant growth after the lights come on consistently will limit the algae while the plants switch its mechanism to using bi-carbonate as it source of carbon when needed. Most plants/moss and liverworts do better in cold water.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[joe]

Yup I got that before already PeterGwee Thanks

So, CO2 tank - CO2 limiting
Non-CO2 tank - Light limiting

So assuming we know the above, does this means temperature comes into play now? High temps will benefit algae more than plants??

[PeterGwee]

That has something to do with enzymes which I will not indulge into it.

If you want to learn more, subscribe to the BarrReport. Next month's article is O2....darn this month is late again. :P

Regards
Peter Gwee

[joe]

That has something to do with enzymes which I will not indulge into it.

If you want to learn more, subscribe to the BarrReport. Next month's article is O2....darn this month is late again. :P

Regards
Peter Gwee

Geez revealing a bit will help lots of us yea? You missed your monthly thing??

[bclee]

The main thing of non-CO2 method is to drive the CO2 down to very low levels or even zero from plant growth such that it limits algae. Keeping the CO2 up in a non-CO2 tank drive algae growth since they react faster than plants do to changes. Most algae are bad bi-carbonate users and hence driving the CO2 down to zero from plant growth after the lights come on consistently will limit the algae while the plants switch its mechanism to using bi-carbonate as it source of carbon when needed. Most plants/moss and liverworts do better in cold water.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Hi Peter, how about mosses? Are they CO2 user or carbonate user?

In my memory, I vaguely remember that moss are primarily CO2 user. Maybe my moss is suffering badly in my non-CO2 tank due to that reason, despite the low temperature. I am quite impress with the lush growing moss in Joe's tank.

BC

[joe]

Hi Peter, how about mosses? Are they CO2 user or carbonate user?

In my memory, I vaguely remember that moss are primarily CO2 user. If that is the case, my moss suffer badly in my non-CO2 tank due to that reason, despite the low temperature. I am quite impress with the lush growing moss in Joe's tank.

BC

Oh this is something new. How does CO2 and carbonate differ? Do plants or moss prefer one over the other?
I've never injected any CO2 into this tank except for the initial few weeks to kickstart the plant growth.
Perhaps the low temperature plays a big part??

[PeterGwee]

Hi Peter, how about mosses? Are they CO2 user or carbonate user?

In my memory, I vaguely remember that moss are primarily CO2 user. Maybe my moss is suffering badly in my non-CO2 tank due to that reason, despite the low temperature. I am quite impress with the lush growing moss in Joe's tank.

BC

Moss is a CO2 user which cannot use bicarbonate as another source of carbon as Tom mention quite often. Increasing the surface current a tad bit might help as does dosing some Seachem Equilibrium/traces/KNO3/KH2PO4 might help. Not all plants do well in a non-CO2 tank with just fish waste...some need more nutrients.

I'll try to redirect the question in BarrReport to Tom if you want...

Regards
Peter Gwee

[Plantbrain]

Maybe, in their climate, it's not an important parameter as ambient temperature hardly goes up to 33 degrees celcius.

Cheers,

Oh it gets damn hot here.
In southern CA, it gets extremely hot. Much hotter than it ever does there.
In the central valley here in CA, temps in the 100-110F are common most of the summer months.

Midwest, 90-100, the south, 90-105F.
Arizona/TX/NM, 100F at night, 120F in many places.

AC is an absolute. FL was 95-100 about 4-5 months out of the year and 100% humidity.

33C= 91F
That's just starting to get warm.
110F= 43C.

I've found numerous plants at 40C water temps.
Mosses tend to do poorly at high temps, it got too hot for some of them in a tank I have last year, it was 99F in the tank when the tank crashed.

We have plenty of heat, it's just seasonal.

Hawaii is nice though
But I like CA, I can ski today, surf later, eat great asian food, see the world's largest trees, see the world's tallest trees, see the world's oldest trees, see the wolrd's coolest Valley(Yosemite) all in the same day about 4 hours drive from eachother.

Non CO2:

You can do very well by adding just a tad inorganic nutrients once a week.
If you trim etc, it can look good also.

It's a different approach and takes longer, but once set, it does so well, it makes you wonder how the other 1/2 lives

I had no fish when I came up with the approach and found that by adding a few things, you still avoid water changes, BUT...........

..............you can grow more species and better health by doing a little dosing than the method suggested by Diana. Sghe freely admits there are many plants that are unsuitable for a non CArbon enriched tank.

There is no good reason why the other plants cannot grow and I figured out why(they outcompete eachother and one often dominates, adding a more balanced nutrient than mere fish food alone helps a great deal).
This simple and easy addition allows a wider diversity of weeds to be grown and at a better level of health and growth rate.

Excel (SeaChem) methods are not the same as this FYI.
Use 1/3 EI there.

The method is not much different than what Diana suggest mind you.
It's just tweaked a bit to allow more plants species to be used, removes some competition in a limited tank, allows you to use things other than soil for a substrate, but her notions about no water changes, mainly fish waste for fertilization(or not, depending on how you want to go about it) do work and I have nothing but good things to say about her and the book.

I might not agree with everything she wrote, but most of it as far as a method and goal is spot on.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[joe]

Excel (SeaChem) methods are not the same as this FYI.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Hi Tom, thanks for your comments. I dun really understand this part. Can you elaborate?

[ranmasatome]

if you are going to dose excel or use it...then dose 1/3 EI

[joe]

Thanks ranmasatome!!! Well it seems temperature does not play a important part in a non-CO2 tank. Plants growing in 40 degrees celsius is hard to imagine!!!