Discus war.

[grey_fox]

After adding two new discus to my tank, the discuses are having a mini-war in there. They're chasing one another like there's no tomorrow.

Initially there was 2 browns that was controlling the entire shoal, however, now with the addition of 2 new discus, it seems that these 2 brown ones have disbanded and the more dorminant one is chasing the other brown one...and with all the chasing, the new ones are unable to eat.

I feel that this is gonna stress the rest of the discus in there. Any ideas on how to stop all of this? By the way, this is how things are right now with the territory issues. *Who's chasing who...*

Brown discus >> Brown discus >> Red malboro >> Blue diamonds >> LSS >> Tigers.
(so you can imagine the 'weaker' ones are being bullied by more than 1 discus, for e.g. the LSS are being chased by both browns, the marlboros & the blue diamonds, so that would make it up to 5 of them chasing 2 LSS... so the Tigers are getting it the worst.)

The new additions are the Tigers and seem to be chased by all the rest of the discus and I can see that they're a little stressed at the moment and can see their fins being nipped a little.

Before adding the Tigers, the 2 browns were not fighting...

This is starting to worry me.

I understand that Cichilds by nature are territorial and aggressive but this is a little too much, even for me....

[Jungle-mania]

I think you know what must be done, either a new 3 footer tank or a give away.

[grey_fox]

Hmm... if its got to be done, then I guess I will have no choice but to give some of the discus away since having another tank is out of the question.

Strange thing is that my tank's setup has tons of hiding spots. It's just that when the strong one sees the weak ones, then the chasing will begin (This only happens during lighting periods)

[Justikanz]

Pass the tigers to me...

Ok, seriously... You can so a large water change and re-arrange some decoration... The older fish will think they are in a new tank and the whole pecking order will be re-arranged.

Or, you can remove the 2 (or 1) largest (i.e. most dominant) discus temporarily and let the new discus and less dominant ones rest and get to eat. When they are settled, then add the discus back.

If all fails, remove the new fish. The other fish MAY or MAY NOT recover, but that would be the last resort...

There might be also a high chance of the brown loving the new tiger and forsaking the old brown mate...

[grey_fox]

Hehehe.

I will probably do the large water change during this Saturday. However won't be moving much of the decor around (might end up giving them a bigger shock in the end).

Heh, I got no where to place the discus should I remove them. Actually I don't really want to scoop them out unless I have a new tank (which is unlikely). Most of the discus are relatively the same size except for the Red Marlboro and one of the LSS which are slightly smaller than that of the rest.

The two seniors of the tank are the brown ones, they're the very first two to be added into the tank followed by the marlboro red, then the blue diamonds, LSS and now the Tigers. So the "Lao Da" of the tank would be the brown... if only they can all be friends..

Problem is that I think all the discus I have are all males...

[Justikanz]

The re-arrangment is the abosolute necessity...

[grey_fox]

Don't want hiroshima

[Justikanz]

Good luck... Without a re-arrangement, I doubt the water change is going to help... Hope all goes well! If all fails, I am willing to buy the tigers from you...

[grey_fox]

hehe ok will keep that in mind. If they do get bullied too much then yes I will let them go to you instead. Only thing is that what I am afraid of is that they end up getting bullied into sickness. This happened to 1 of my marlboro reds.

[celticfish]

greyfox,
how many discus do you have in your tank? at least 7?
tank size 5X2X2 should be decent but they are big fellas.
so if line of sight not blocked... they will chase.
the territorial nature is instinctive and can't be changed.
i suggest you "sacrifice" the smaller discus.
i.e. as distressed as you are, leave them alone to settle down.
doing nothing seems to be your best choice since you don't want to take them out.
they are playing out the pecking order.

side note: i hope you have minimal hard scape (DW or rocks) in your tank.
do remember to remove these first if you attempt to take them out.
they can hurt themselves quite bad when the do a brust dash.
even in my "bare" tank they still hurt themselves (i didn't even do anything).
a shadow here or there and they get spooked to dash...

justinkanz,
regarding removing the dominant fish...
tried that before and got disaster.
by removing them you remove "dominant" status too.
so mine suggestion is to exploit success by leaving thing alone.
let the small one fend for itself and be the target of, yes greyfox, everyone else...

[grey_fox]

Hey celtic,

Yup, its a 5 x 2 x 2 tank. Currently housing 9 discus. I have quite a bit of hardscape in there and hiding spots for the discus (less dorminant) ones to hide. The smaller ones (that being 1 x Red marlboro & 1 x LSS) however, the Red marlboro is more dorminant than the bigger Tigers! The Tigers I have are about 3 1/2 inches in diameter (from mouth till tail), same goes for the browns & blue diamonds.

The 1 x red marlboro & 1 x LSS are about 2 1/2 inches in diameter. Likewise the smaller LSS is more dorminant than the Tigers as well. So in my tank, apparently size does not matter...

So the best advise is to leave them alone and let them sort out the pecking order on their own? My dad (he kept discuses way back, about a good 15 years ago) and informed me the same thing, to leave them alone and let them sort it out, he mentioned that having 1 or 2 die during this process (bullied into sickness) would be inevitable in some circumstances (despite shifting them to a 'hospital tank' complete with darkness + good aeration and moderate heat.) and that its part & parcel of nature, just that this is a man-made environment.

Problem for me right now is that I do not mind letting them sort things out (pecking order) its just that if one gets sick, should I just 'sacrifce' (sacrifice is to give the fella up or to dispose of it huh? ) the fella or leave it there. I do not want that one fella to end up infecting the rest with whatever sickness that may come should it happen.

greyfox,
how many discus do you have in your tank? at least 7?
tank size 5X2X2 should be decent but they are big fellas.
so if line of sight not blocked... they will chase.
the territorial nature is instinctive and can't be changed.
i suggest you "sacrifice" the smaller discus.
i.e. as distressed as you are, leave them alone to settle down.
doing nothing seems to be your best choice since you don't want to take them out.
they are playing out the pecking order.

side note: i hope you have minimal hard scape (DW or rocks) in your tank.
do remember to remove these first if you attempt to take them out.
they can hurt themselves quite bad when the do a brust dash.
even in my "bare" tank they still hurt themselves (i didn't even do anything).
a shadow here or there and they get spooked to dash...

justinkanz,
regarding removing the dominant fish...
tried that before and got disaster.
by removing them you remove "dominant" status too.
so mine suggestion is to exploit success by leaving thing alone.
let the small one fend for itself and be the target of, yes greyfox, everyone else...

[celticfish]

i'd consider your 2.5-3.5in fishes in adolescent behaviour.
very quarrelsome and fiesty.
the tigers will eventually sort/assert themselves out once they get use to the new environment.
i reckon temparature may have to do with their slower transition.

the "last man" will probably have slower growth.
that does not mean it has disease and will infect the rest.
healthy discus will have resistance.
its the individual "sick" fish that will go.
but don't get complacent though.

i go by this rule to take out the fish or not.
if its bright eyed and shows its regular colour pattern - leave it.
if it turns dark (eyes too) - take it out.
check eating pattern and poop colour.

[mordrake]

leave all the discus in. once pecking order is re-established, the chasing should lessen.

you can help by spreading the food all over during feeding time and not just at one spot.
when food is in abundance, aggression will lessen.

[grey_fox]

Hey celtic.

Yup they're still juveniles (its true, I hardly see this quarrelsome cum fiesty behaviour with the larger/adult discus especially)

I don't quite get what you mean by the temperature having a slow transistion for this? Care to elaborate and share on this?

So far, the fishes' health are ok, as for the fish turning black, only the LSS will exhibit this when the brown discus comes near it, it will become black and its stress bars will start to show, once the brown goes away it goes back to normal coloration again. However when I feed the discuses, the smaller one (with the brown's presence) turns black but still eats and still chases the tigers... weird huh?

Initially when I saw the fella turn black, I thought that it's going to go. However 5 minutes later, everything seemed ok. Even when it is chasing the Tigers at times, it still turns black...

Just to clarify, normally when its sick & black, the fins are all clamped up and it'll stay at a corner, am I correct to say this, not still eat and be fit enough to chase the less dorminant ones right?

i'd consider your 2.5-3.5in fishes in adolescent behaviour.
very quarrelsome and fiesty.
the tigers will eventually sort/assert themselves out once they get use to the new environment.
i reckon temparature may have to do with their slower transition.

the "last man" will probably have slower growth.
that does not mean it has disease and will infect the rest.
healthy discus will have resistance.
its the individual "sick" fish that will go.
but don't get complacent though.

i go by this rule to take out the fish or not.
if its bright eyed and shows its regular colour pattern - leave it.
if it turns dark (eyes too) - take it out.
check eating pattern and poop colour.

[grey_fox]

leave all the discus in. once pecking order is re-established, the chasing should lessen.

you can help by spreading the food all over during feeding time and not just at one spot.
when food is in abundance, aggression will lessen.

That's what I am doing now at the moment. I'm trying to let the rest of them have a chance to eat as well.

Probably I should play them a song "Why can't we be friends" by War

[celticfish]

greyfox,

discus normally like warmer temp.
from your tank description you have a chiller (planted needs one, duh.).
plants do better with chilled water and discus warmer.
here's the real dilemma.
if something goes out of wack which do you save?!!
i'm just assuming that the LFS tank temparature and your tank has a differential.

cryptic way of saying it but if i understand you correctly you correct about the dark thingy.
generally the turning dark is quite "permanant" till the discus recover.
during this time they will not be interested in food at all.
so as long as they eat you are A-okay.
turning dark momentarily is also a way of communication for them too.

Hey celtic.

I don't quite get what you mean by the temperature having a slow transistion for this? Care to elaborate and share on this?

Just to clarify, normally when its sick & black, the fins are all clamped up and it'll stay at a corner, am I correct to say this, not still eat and be fit enough to chase the less dorminant ones right?

[grey_fox]

Hey celtic,

Yeah, I did read that discus thrive better in warmer temperatures. Initially my tank, before the addition of the chiller, its temperature fluctuates between 27.8 all the way to 30 degrees and yes, my plants have suffered, especially during the hot spells.

So when I added in the chiller, I acclimatized them to the cooler temperatures, just at a slower rate. Intially I kept the temperature range from 28.0 ~ 28.5 degrees for about a week, day by day, I then dropped the temperature by 1 degree by the next 2 weeks, from 28.0-28.5 to 27.5-28.0 degrees and there after from 27.5-27.0 and so-on-and-so-forth till it reached 26.5 degrees.

I kept a lookout for any ICH outbreak and so far so good. I guess the fellas that are suffering now to the "cold" temperature would be the Tigers perhaps.... (they're not black by the way even when they just chased around, just really scared it seems)

So bottom line here is to sit it out, let them peck each other and sort out the pecking order.

And of course, look out for the sick ones should that happen?

greyfox,

discus normally like warmer temp.
from your tank description you have a chiller (planted needs one, duh.).
plants do better with chilled water and discus warmer.
here's the real dilemma.
if something goes out of wack which do you save?!!
i'm just assuming that the LFS tank temparature and your tank has a differential.

cryptic way of saying it but if i understand you correctly you correct about the dark thingy.
generally the turning dark is quite "permanant" till the discus recover.
during this time they will not be interested in food at all.
so as long as they eat you are A-okay.
turning dark momentarily is also a way of communication for them too.

[celticfish]

haha... yup, just let them peck till the pecking order is established.
doing nothing is best but usually the hardest to do so.

i must say your tigers are quite strudy to be at 26.5C!
they should be the ones you worry about since they did'nt benefit from the eventual drop in temparature.
but it seems they doing well.
you may want to consider doing the reverse when you add any new discus next time.
ie. raise up temp to 27.5C then back down after you add the fish.
doing so over the course of a couple of days shouldn't be too drastic an action.

[grey_fox]

haha... yup, just let them peck till the pecking order is established.
doing nothing is best but usually the hardest to do so.

i must say your tigers are quite strudy to be at 26.5C!
they should be the ones you worry about since they did'nt benefit from the eventual drop in temparature.
but it seems they doing well.
you may want to consider doing the reverse when you add any new discus next time.
ie. raise up temp to 27.5C then back down after you add the fish.
doing so over the course of a couple of days shouldn't be too drastic an action.

Yeah this was my mistake. I totally forgotten about the tanks' temperature when I added in the new Tigers.

Should I increase the temperature to go up to 27.5 or would it not matter now? By the way, I don't think I'll be adding any more new discuses.

[grey_fox]

OK, good news for all.

Seems like the pecking order has in a way established a bit. Just fed my fishes and the Tigers did eat, despite getting nipped at the same time. Guess they were too hungry already to bother.

Anyways, will increase the temperature to go up to 27.5 and then monitor further.