Black Brush Algae (BBA) and CO2

[Plantbrain]

Generally, if you have BBa, you need to first kill what is there and trim it off.
then re set the tank, do large water changes etc.
Ferts don't matter, high low, it does not matter with BBA, it's all about the
CO2.

"Hard to control CO2".........that right there says it all.

When you control the CO2, you will control the BBA.
It is that simple.

There is nothing wrong with the ferts, you add plenty of Ca, Mg, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc.

That's fine.

You can beat on the BBA with Excel and with SAE's also.
It does still get back to adding enough CO2 to stop any new BBA growth.

Add more CO2 slowly.
Little by little and wait a day and watch fish etc and the plant's, are they still growing better each time you add more CO2?
Are they pearling faster/more intense etc?
Is the BBA slowly going away?

That's what you should look at really.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Sweet Angel]

Generally, if you have BBa, you need to first kill what is there and trim it off.
then re set the tank, do large water changes etc.
Ferts don't matter, high low, it does not matter with BBA, it's all about the
CO2.

Regards,
Tom Barr

If we have BBA in non CO2 tank, do we have any alternative to kill BBA beside killing/trimming the infested plants, reset tank, & do large WC...?

[bclee]

If we have BBA in non CO2 tank, do we have any alternative to kill BBA beside killing/trimming the infested plants, reset tank, & do large WC...?

Are u doing frequent water changes to your non-CO2 tank... if so... stop it.

BC

[juggler]

Hi Peter,

If I get your answer correct, that would be reference solution is 1 dKH while my tank water is at 4 dKH. And I let both sit out for 48 hours. Is that right?

I don't do 24/7. I have the CO2 on timer with the lights. I don't think circulation is a problem... Perhaps I should attached a picture for easy reference.

Sleepy_lancs: I am blur as well. But I suspect you need to prepare a reference solution of 4 kH to match with your tank's kH value. Otherwise, everyone can just minus the same "1.8" to get the pH for 30ppm CO2.

Hope Peter can clarify.

[Sleepy_lancs]

Hi Tom,

Good to have you look at this thread. Yeap. I have tried that as well.. I hit 6.2 and all my shrimps gave their life back to the Creator While the BBA still stays. I am now hovering my PH between 6.4 to 6.5. I will trim those affected plants and monitor from there I suppose. Increase of CO2 seems to also increase rate of O2 generation (at least to my eye). Do you think I should reduce changing water to once every 2-3 weeks since I keep having trouble getting the right amount of Baking Soda to get 4 KH? Would you recommend that I reduce my dosing to cater for that? Please advice dosing in ppm (I prefer solution dosing)

Perhaps its just my tanks, but I still don't get it why only plants along the path where water rich with CO2 are affected while the rest are not (or maybe not yet) its a mystery. Btw, my tank's plant density is not high (I am trying to add more crypts)

BTW, I am trying a unorthodox method where I stop my surface skimmer during light hours. It seems to reduce the need to inject exta co2 to keep the PH at 6.4. Rationale behind would be to reduce the CO2 expel rate while stopping extra O2 from getting into the system when water flows into the skimmer from the top (drop zone) I maybe wrong but its at least a test

[Sleepy_lancs]

Hi All,

My tank's flow as below:



The Green outlets for enriched CO2 water which come via the CO2 external reactor.

The Blue outet is from my filter which is connected to skimmer.

Hope this clear things up.

[PeterGwee]

Sleepy_lancs: I am blur as well. But I suspect you need to prepare a reference solution of 4 kH to match with your tank's kH value. Otherwise, everyone can just minus the same "1.8" to get the pH for 30ppm CO2.

Hope Peter can clarify.

No, the ref. sample KH does not need to match the tank water sample KH. What you want to know is the difference in pH to drop to reach 30ppm using CO2. The DI water sample is pure and does not have any form of buffer other than the bicarbonate that you add in. Assuming the ambient CO2 is ~3ppm, you would need the same amount pH difference in order to reach 30ppm for a sample of KH 1, 2 and etc.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[juggler]

No, the ref. sample KH does not need to match the tank water sample KH. What you want to know is the difference in pH to drop to reach 30ppm using CO2. The DI water sample is pure and does not have any form of buffer other than the bicarbonate that you add in. Assuming the ambient CO2 is ~3ppm, you would need the same amount pH difference in other to reach 30ppm for a sample of KH 1, 2 and etc.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Peter, I am unsure of the calculation now. Can you help?

Now Sleepy_lancs tank sample after 48 hrs is 8 pH/ 4 kH.

If the Ref Sample kH does not matter, then we should have a standard value which would be the same for everyone, right? How does this relate to the above values?

What is Sleepy_lancs ideal pH to hit?

Thanks!

[PeterGwee]

Peter, I am unsure of the calculation now. Can you help?

Now Sleepy_lancs tank sample after 48 hrs is 8 pH/ 4 kH.

If the Ref Sample kH does not matter, then we should have a standard value which would be the same for everyone, right? How does this relate to the above values?

What is Sleepy_lancs ideal pH to hit?

Thanks!

I'm not sure which part you are really unsure of?

Sleepy_lancs only has the tank water as the sample and no ref. sample was used/created.

Lets take for example that a ref. sample with DI water + baking soda (KH=2) was created with comparison to the tank water sample of Sleepy_lancs. Both sample were left to sit out in open air for 48hrs.

After 48hrs
DI water + baking soda (KH=2), pH = 8.2
Tank water, pH = 7.6
Using the pH/KH chart, we need to drop the pH by 1.9 in order to get ~30ppm for the ref. sample. So, assuming the partial pressure acting on both samples are same (same level of ambient CO2), we need to lower the pH of the tank water sample to 5.7 (using CO2 only) to get ~30ppm.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[juggler]

I'm not sure which part you are really unsure of?

Sleepy_lancs only has the tank water as the sample and no ref. sample was used/created.

We don't need to create ref sample. We can just tap on to your values. I mean it won't vary much if anyone were to stand a 500ml of DI water with 1 kH over 48 hrs anywhere in Singapore, right? Am I wrong to assume this?

Lets take for example that a ref. sample with DI water + baking soda (KH=2) was created with comparison to the tank water sample of Sleepy_lancs. Both sample were left to sit out in open air for 48hrs.

After 48hrs
DI water + baking soda (KH=2), pH = 8.2
Tank water, pH = 7.6
Using the pH/KH chart, we need to drop the pH by 1.9 in order to get ~30ppm for the ref. sample. So, assuming the partial pressure acting on both samples are same (same level of ambient CO2), we need to lower the pH of the tank water sample to 5.7 (using CO2 only) to get ~30ppm.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Since you already have a "standard" value of "1.9" now, can we use it like below for Sleepy_lancs?

Since his tank pH after 48 hrs is 8 pH.
So 8 - 1.9 = 6.1 pH should be his ideal pH to get 30ppm CO2?

[PeterGwee]

We don't need to create ref sample. We can just tap on to your values. I mean it won't vary much if anyone were to stand a 500ml of DI water with 1 kH over 48 hrs anywhere in Singapore, right? Am I wrong to assume this?



Since you already have a "standard" value of "1.9" now, can we use it like below for Sleepy_lancs?

Since his tank pH after 48 hrs is 8 pH.
So 8 - 1.9 = 6.1 pH should be his ideal pH to get 30ppm CO2?

That is just an example!!!! Do not assume that! Your pH test pen is different from mine and does not always read the same value..

Regards
Peter Gwee

[blurfish]

We don't need to create ref sample. We can just tap on to your values. I mean it won't vary much if anyone were to stand a 500ml of DI water with 1 kH over 48 hrs anywhere in Singapore, right? Am I wrong to assume this?

Well, actually not the case. If you look up any reference on atmospheric CO2 level most resource give a range. People assume an average of 3ppm CO2 if you stand a sample water long enough to equilize with the CO2 in the air. But if you try it out with a water sample of known KH and measured PH you will likely find not the same number from the KH/PH/CO2 table and it may vary in different day.

So, you can view Tom's method as providing a base reference without needing to know the exact CO2 level in the air - both the tank water sample and the reference sample subjected to the same CO2 level of the surrounding air. That is the essence of this method : You apply the correlation to project the PH level you need to achieve for your target CO2 level in the tank without the need to have the precise alkalinity by carbonate hardness (as your tank might have other bufffering agents in play) or the exact residue CO2 level in the sample water left standing 48 hrs.

[juggler]

OK. So my assumption is wrong. Sorry.

Peter: What kind of pH range did you get when you stand a DI water with 1 kH for 48 hrs for all this while you tried the method? Has it been quite a big range? I don't own a pH test pen so your results should be more accurate. If the variation is not large, then at least we can have a rough figure to work with.

I read in the past someone aerating the tank sample before testing pH. Can we do likewise for the DI water with 1 kH? This way, we can be quite sure both samples are quite low in CO2 (and not affected by atmospheric CO2 to a significant extent) when we test. Is this assumption valid? Would that be better?

[Plantbrain]

So, you can view Tom's method as providing a base reference without needing to know the exact CO2 level in the air - both the tank water sample and the reference sample subjected to the same CO2 level of the surrounding air. That is the essence of this method : You apply the correlation to project the PH level you need to achieve for your target CO2 level in the tank without the need to have the precise alkalinity by carbonate hardness (as your tank might have other bufffering agents in play) or the exact residue CO2 level in the sample water left standing 48 hrs.

You got it.

Now, what about the BBA?
I generally bump the CO2 up slowly till new growth stops.
Prior, I prune off all of it on the tank walls, equipment, wood, rock, tubing etc.
Then wait and see.

It'll grow on that stuff generally first.
Then once corrected, I go after the leaves and prune them off.

It's always easier to whack a leave than take it out, bleach, then put that ratty looking leaf back into the tank.

Many cannot bring themselves to do that to Anubias, but with good CO2/nutrients etc, the plants grow back very well.
You can also buy some cheapy filler plants, at least they are useful,and not ratty 1/2 dead leaves that contribute little to the overall balance in the tank.
Those old bleached leaves are not much better than plastic.

Hair algae etc, I'll do the same thing, remove the offending plant, maybe pick it clean and return or if it's a lot more work, toss it.

Aquatic plants grow like weeds if you give them good conditions and every 1-2 weeks you have a ton more, so it's no big deal.

Also, do not let the BBA cover everything, it takes a awhile for that to happen and folks sit there and look at the BBA and then cry about it later.

When you see the firsty signs of it, check the CO2 and add a bit more.
Don't wait till have this huge issue.


Both a lull in plant growth when you have been adding ferts regularly and things have been kept clean will tip you off before BBA sets in as well.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Sweet Angel]

Are u doing frequent water changes to your non-CO2 tank... if so... stop it.

BC

I was...
Now I just remove the protein layer on top of water, then top up water.

Btw I have 2 non CO2 tanks in office, I change water daily, they never have any algae problem till now.
I do WC daily cause the small one (nano tank) without filter, so in order to get clean water, I do WC.
The other tank I keep guppy fries in it, so if I feed them egg yolk, I do WC to keep tank water clean...

[Sleepy_lancs]

Tom,

Thanks for the advice. Yes. I had removed those bba on the equipment and stuff.. so far no regrowth observed after 1 week. I guess i have to wait for 2 weeks later to see any more new growth before hitting on the leaves again. No change in tank parameters except that I ensure the skimmer isn't taking in water from the top (meaning no skimming) druing light hours.

[Sleepy_lancs]

Okay. Experiment with Distilled water commenced on 20/08/2006 at 2130 hrs:

With Distilled water at KH 1.5, PH = 7.4
Tank water at KH 3.5, PH = 6.5 (due to CO2 injection)

Next update, 21/08/2006 at 2130 hrs.

[neon]

Tom/ Peter :

I tried to make up a reference sample using Distilled water with 1dKH. After 20 hrs hrs later, I noticed that the PH is lower than my tank sample.


Reference sample (after 20hrs later) : 1dKH , PH 6.5
Tank sample (after 44 hrs later) : 6 dKH, PH 7.0

current tank reading (before Co2 injection) : 6dKH , PH 5.5

So, why the distilled water sample is so low in PH ? Can I do away with the reference sample , with just the tank sample and current tank reading ?

Thanks !

[PeterGwee]

Tom/ Peter :

I tried to make up a reference sample using Distilled water with 1dKH. After 20 hrs hrs later, I noticed that the PH is lower than my tank sample.


Reference sample (after 20hrs later) : 1dKH , PH 6.5
Tank sample (after 44 hrs later) : 6 dKH, PH 7.0

current tank reading (before Co2 injection) : 6dKH , PH 5.5

So, why the distilled water sample is so low in PH ? Can I do away with the reference sample , with just the tank sample and current tank reading ?

Thanks !

Your pH reading is out of whack meaning either a bad pH probe/kit. You can consider eye-balling the plants/fish/critters method unless you are willing to spend money on another pH pen. Use a couple of diffusers might look better than powerhead mist method. Dial in a certain bubble rate for the diffusers and watch the fish closely especially the last few hours. Look out for plant response as well. You can bump the CO2 rate up slowly each day as long as the fish/critters are fine. Fine tunning the CO2 via watching the plants/fish is a better method after a simple dial in with test kits.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[Sleepy_lancs]

Hi All,

Wasn't able to post yesterday. So as of yesterday 2200 hrs:

With Distilled water at KH 1.5, PH = 7.4
Tank water at KH 3.5, PH = 8.0~8.1

Next update tonight 2200 hrs.