Some notes on my new Hailea Chiller

[benny]

Guys,

Differing opinions are not uncommon. Let's deal with it like gentlemen. I've edited parts of the thread that does not contribute to the discussion.

When I set my Teco chiller at 25 degrees with a buffer of 1 degrees, it kickes in at 26 and cuts off at 25 degrees. I can also set the buffer from 0 to 2 degrees.

Cheers,

[Nicky]

That's correct, but provided both temp sensor "really" in-sync / calibrated correctly. My observation, the chiller internal thermostat sensor is different from the external one , at least for my. So, on the safest side and just in case the external sensor drop-out or spoilt, at least the internal one able to cut it off at lower temp, instead of letting the chiller continue to chill. Mind you when that happen, the titanium coil will crack when frozen , according to Tan. Then will be in big trouble. With this double thermostat, can be used as redundancy.

Let's discuss the concerns you raised..

1. Temp sensor not in-sync
I believe my new chiller have a feature to calibrate the thermo sensor (will let you know). The build-in sensor senses the temp of the water in the chiller whereas the external probe senses the temp of the water. Of course there will be a different in both reading. However if you calibrate your chiller thermo sensor to be in sync with your measure temp in your tank, that will fix your problem once a for all, without having to invest in the external probe.

2. Titanium coil crack because of freeze
If you do not have an external probe then obviously this will not happen. Even if you choose to have it, all you have to do is to set your chiller temp a bit lower than that of the desire temp (which you set on your external control). That way there is no way to screw things up.


Now.. why would anyone want to use the 'delay' function??

Someone said (was it you har?) that even if the chiller delay kicking in by 2 min, there is no change in temp and there will be $$ savings.
Well, yes and no.....
'Yes' because that's what you see on the digital display and you assume that no change in digital display ==> No change in temp.
'No' because in actual fact, there is a rise in temp because your tank is of a lower temp than the surrounding and heat transfer will always happen (law of thermodynamics).
So let's say you delay the kicking in of your chiller by 2 min. In actual fact, your tank has already 'suck in' 2 min of heat.
Assuming your chiller is set to start at 26.0C and stop at 25.0C, with the 2min delay instead of 26.00C it is now 26.08C when the chiller starts to work (and to you, it is 26.0C).
So your chiller will have to work from 26.08C --> 25.00C, instead of 26.00C --> 25.00C.
Going by common sense, the chiller now have to work longer than before, right?
Any saving, if at all, should be very small in comparison to the investment to buy this external gadget.

So is it that worth it to buy an external gadget just to save that few cents per month, and have all kinds of wiring, probe and gadget hanging around, plus the fear of your titanium coil cracking (if you don't set it up properly)?

Maybe someone can try to convince me (and others who agree to my argument here) why this additional gadget is useful, other than making a few more hundred bucks from me.. .. like some LFSs.... .....


BTW, who rated this 4 stars?
Are you sure it is 4-stars and not 5-stars postings?

[ranmasatome]

nicky.. i think the delay function is just to prevent unecessay kicking in of chiller. IF i set at 25dC and buffer 0.5 each side.. then SOMETIMES.. say if i'm in a colder country...when temperature drops to 25.6.. the chiller would logically kick in.. but it will wait..as sometimes it is possible for the temp to drop back to 25.5.. so it prevent unecessary kicking in. same applies for chilling.. when it hits 24.5... sometimes it may go back up to 24.6 or drop to 24.3.. i guess to me its like buffer on top of a buffer..haha.. but then again.. i might be wrong.

[neon]

Let's discuss the concerns you raised..

1. Temp sensor not in-sync
I believe my new chiller have a feature to calibrate the thermo sensor (will let you know). The build-in sensor senses the temp of the water in the chiller whereas the external probe senses the temp of the water. Of course there will be a different in both reading. However if you calibrate your chiller thermo sensor to be in sync with your measure temp in your tank, that will fix your problem once a for all, without having to invest in the external probe.

2. Titanium coil crack because of freeze
If you do not have an external probe then obviously this will not happen. Even if you choose to have it, all you have to do is to set your chiller temp a bit lower than that of the desire temp (which you set on your external control). That way there is no way to screw things up.


Now.. why would anyone want to use the 'delay' function??

Someone said (was it you har?) that even if the chiller delay kicking in by 2 min, there is no change in temp and there will be $$ savings.
Well, yes and no.....
'Yes' because that's what you see on the digital display and you assume that no change in digital display ==> No change in temp.
'No' because in actual fact, there is a rise in temp because your tank is of a lower temp than the surrounding and heat transfer will always happen (law of thermodynamics).
So let's say you delay the kicking in of your chiller by 2 min. In actual fact, your tank has already 'suck in' 2 min of heat.
Assuming your chiller is set to start at 26.0C and stop at 25.0C, with the 2min delay instead of 26.00C it is now 26.08C when the chiller starts to work (and to you, it is 26.0C).
So your chiller will have to work from 26.08C --> 25.00C, instead of 26.00C --> 25.00C.
Going by common sense, the chiller now have to work longer than before, right?
Any saving, if at all, should be very small in comparison to the investment to buy this external gadget.

So is it that worth it to buy an external gadget just to save that few cents per month, and have all kinds of wiring, probe and gadget hanging around, plus the fear of your titanium coil cracking (if you don't set it up properly)?

Maybe someone can try to convince me (and others who agree to my argument here) why this additional gadget is useful, other than making a few more hundred bucks from me.. .. like some LFSs.... .....


BTW, who rated this 4 stars?
Are you sure it is 4-stars and not 5-stars postings?

Nick,

That is the case if the sensor is internal, which it keeps flipping up-and-down, whereas the external probe does not. By delay 10 mins more when hitting 27, the sensor still remains at 27 which the chiller kick in. Think , even if it hits 27.1 (which I have not seen even during lighting period), how long do you think the chiller will take to chill another 0.1 deg , 10 min more ? Don't think so , right ?

[Nicky]

That is the case if the sensor is internal, which it keeps flipping up-and-down, whereas the external probe does not.

Why do you think external probe will behave differently (and better) than the internal probe?

By delay 10 mins more when hitting 27, the sensor still remains at 27 which the chiller kick in. Think , even if it hits 27.1 (which I have not seen even during lighting period), how long do you think the chiller will take to chill another 0.1 deg , 10 min more ? Don't think so , right ?

Over a period of time (a day), the chiller will have to make up for the 10 min heat gain. The heat gain during the 10 min must be countered by heat lost. But it does not mean that heat gain in 10 min can only be countered by the chiller in 10 min (it should be less).

For example: You may delay the switching ON of the chiller by 10 min. But you cannot be sure that the chiller will run for the exact same duration if you do not delay the start time by 10 min, right? It is probably a few minute later than it would, if you do nothing to interfere with the original chiller configuration.

A 'number' example:
Do nothing: Switch on 1000hrs, switch off 1030hrs.
Spent $ buy this and that: Switch on 1010hrs, switch off 1042hrs.

Paisay hor but I dont think the logic you are implying can be supported by any sound theory.

[BFG]

The external probe is meant to take the temperature of the water in the actual tank itself. The internal probe receives the water temperature that it is feed with. Using an external probe is better as the actual temperature that you want the tank water to be is the actual temperature that you set the chiller at.

[neon]

The external probe is meant to take the temperature of the water in the actual tank itself. The internal probe receives the water temperature that it is feed with. Using an external probe is better as the actual temperature that you want the tank water to be is the actual temperature that you set the chiller at.

Precisely the point here. The chiller expert is doing it (like Tan , at least I think he is since he is in this chiller business much longer and see lots more than any one of us) , what does it mean ? He is consistently doing it ,even when he switches from different brand to brand, and he is still doing it now with the 2 new Hailea chillers that he installed now for his big tanks. Why ???

[stephen chung]

Precisely the point here. The chiller expert is doing it (like Tan , at least I think he is since he is in this chiller business much longer and see lots more than any one of us) , what does it mean ? He is consistently doing it ,even when he switches from different brand to brand, and he is still doing it now with the 2 new Hailea chillers that he installed now for his big tanks. Why ???

But do we really need that king of precision?

[Ian Lim]

Where did you get your thermostat device? How does it work? Can take some picture and send to me via email?

Better still, post it here in AQ for all to see. Explain to us how it works.
Thanks!

Hi Nicky,

I believe the model is DS FOX-2002 (Made in Korea) s/no. 016300606, price at about $70 and can be bought in Sim Lim Tower basement ACEZ Instruments Pte Ltd. #B1-36A (from maindoor staircase turn left). I just happen to there earlier and went in to have a look.

Hi Neon, can you confirm the model that you were using. tks.

[BFG]

But do we really need that king of precision?

I believe so. You see, the purpose of getting a chiller is to chill the TANK WATER, not the water coming into the chiller. In doing so, you will chill the tank at the temperature setting that you set.

[neon]

But do we really need that king of precision?

I am not trying to raise the point of precision here , rather that mentioned some of the feature and remove potentially hrs saving running time within a fixed 24hr period.

Also, think about of the frequent cut in and off , at the end becomes wear-and-tear issue. Likewise the frequent heat generated in the house from the chiller, etc.

To illustrate my point here , I sat down and observed my tank during lighting hour on tonight hot evening. My observation for my 6'x2'x2', 1 HP chiller, 2x150W MH , setting kick in 27 deg and cut off at 26 :
1 cycle (2hr 50 mins)= running 38 mins +
2 hr 2 mins idle time to raise up from 26 to 27 +
10 min delay before the next kick in.

Approx ~3 hrs saving 10mins, 11 hrs lighting period => ~ saving 30-40mins. The rest of the light off period => ~ saving 20mins (assuming two cycles within the 13 hrs, but if more running, the more time is saved ) . In the end, minimum 1 hr confirmed not running using the delay and still maintain the 26-27 range.

Tell me , how often will your internal thermostat kick in and cut off within the ~3 hours , and how long each run takes ? Assuming your total running time is the same (38 mins) within the 3 hrs period on the same tank condition. The number of kick in and cut off may be more than the external one (from my own experience). If the internal one kick in more within the same period, what does it tell you, it ignores what the actual tank temp and your original intention to let it hover between 26 to 27 (if that is really your intention). That I should call "precision" the internal one is aiming at by running frequently to maintain the same temp, instead of hovering.

What I described above, just takes it as a reference point for comparison. I am sharing my own experience on comparing my own 1 HP chiller fitted or without external thermotat sensor . Few areas to be noted as mentioned (a) frequency of kick in (b) delay kick in (potential power saving) . If you think I talk rubbish, please just ignore it. Compare with your tank if your have the similar HP (internal thermostat sensor), lighting condition (2x150w) , tank dimension.

I rest my case .

[neon]

Hi Nicky,

I believe the model is DS FOX-2002 (Made in Korea) s/no. 016300606, price at about $70 and can be bought in Sim Lim Tower basement ACEZ Instruments Pte Ltd. #B1-36A (from maindoor staircase turn left). I just happen to there earlier and went in to have a look.

Hi Neon, can you confirm the model that you were using. tks.

I recalled roughly about the same price when I bought.

The model is Fox 1004.

[stephen chung]

But do we really need that king of precision?

Ops..I think I posted a wrong question here.....

[Nicky]

Here's the reply from spservices.. hehe.. I'm right..

[ranmasatome]

Low tension accounts????? whats that? like people that dont use as much compared to big establishments e.g. takashimaya??
Would those qualify as high tension accounts?? so its safe to presume taht for those accounts they use a different formula...hmmm...?? so perhaps thats why they use those power factor ehancers??

[Nicky]

So long as you are residence account it should be low-tension lah.
Let's not worry about things that does not concern us as general user, agree?

[ranmasatome]

just wondering mah...kekeke.. but ya.. low-tension = us.. well most of us.

[Nicky]

I think I have lost my link. Here it is..

[vinz]

So, ok I haven't read the whole thread (I've been messing with AQ stuff all day and I'm a little zombified at the moment, so someone be kind and summarise for me, can?)... How do we derive the power factor? I would want to factor it into the AQ calculator if there is a drastic difference.

[loupgarou]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_power


Energy losses in transmission lines increase with increasing current. Where a load has a power factor lower than 1, more current is required to deliver the same amount of useful energy. Power companies therefore require that customers, especially those with large loads, maintain the power factors of their respective loads within specified limits or be subject to additional charges. Engineers are often interested in the power factor of a load as one of the factors that affect the efficiency of power transmission.


---
since low tension users aren't bothered (ie; cost wise) by efficiency, we should by a chiller based on actual power consumed.