Planted tank and trickle filter system? Please help.

[ikan]

I have a 4x2x2 tank with 4 (4 foot) aquarelle fluores. The plant is just not growing/ dying, except for java moss and java fern. Even Amazon swords get smaller and smaller all the time. I use trickle filter with bio ball. I am wondering if the filter is the cause since trickle filter reduce the amount of CO2 and increase O2 in the water.
Other info: Substrate all gravel with JBL and Azoo fertliser.
Light is on 14 hours/day.
Water change 30% every 1 or 2 weeks.
Density of fish low to moderate largest fish being (5) angelfish.
Temperature: 26 C.
PH: 7.5 and soft/moderate
I have this tank since December. I am at the stage of giving up growing plant and go for tangayikan fish with coral gravel and rocks.
How to do troubleshooting for my tank?

[juggler]

I believe too that the trickle filter is removing the CO2. Are you able to switch to another kind of filtration w/o such agitation of water?
Do you have CO2 injection into your tank? This will help increase CO2 levels.
Lastly, your pH of 7.5 a little higher than what I see in a normal planted tank which is usually about 6.8 to 7.0. I wonder if you have coral chips in your substrate? Best if can use gravel which is inert.
You may also like to measure the kH of the tank to check the CO2 levels and compart with this chart: CO2 table.

[ikan]

Yes I have coral chips in the gravels but not much. I used to keep discus many years back and the PH used to drop to below 6 so I mixed some coral chips. But before I put the gravelin this tank I threw away most of the coral chips except some that are too small. They still should grow okay in PH 7.5 shouldn't it. It's not that critical I thought.
I don't have CO2 injection, I used to have the DIY one but I stopped since I didn't see any improvement.
The gravel is about 10 years old but I wonder if it ever have to be replaced since they natural gravel.

I saw your picture, they are very nice. My plant basically never grow bigger than when I bought them except for java moss and java fern. And the fern grow very slowly too and they don't touch the gravel (on wood).[] [] []

[vinz]

If the plants are getting smaller, not growing nor dying, then I suspect lack of nutrients in the water, especially since you have low bio-load. You mentioned azoo and jbl fertiliser. You mean substrate fertiliser? Any liquid fert? You'll need CO2 too, but I think 1 DIY may not be enough for a such a large tank. If you don't want to invest in a CO2 system now, then at lease try 2 DIY CO2, each in different part of the tank. As juggler said, stop the trickle filter and switch to something more suitable for planted tanks like external canister filters.
What type and how many watts of light do you have?

10 year old gravel I think is ok. You just need to supplement it with substrate fertiliser balls/sticks/tabs.

Java fern do not put their roots into substrate.

[ikan]

I have eheim 2228 canister filter that says can handle up to 600 ltrs which I doubt. Maybe I should use it instead and turn off the trickle filtering system. At the moment I use it for my small pleco tank 150 liters since they love strong current. My amazon sword that I put in a pot also not growing well there and I have 2 2foot flores.

My tank has 4 4foot fluores so it's about 180 - 200 watts of light.

If I want to grow anubias plants do I still need CO2 injection? I have the CO2 valve that I bought from Clementi few years back but haven't got a tank. Many people don't even have CO2 injection and plant still grow okay[]

The fertiliser is root fertiliser, I used to use JBL liquid fertiliser and didn't help either so I stopped.

Tell me if I should just forget about growing plants.

[bclee]

Did you plant them correctly?

Take them out of the pots and wool. Trim the roots... etc.

BC

[Vican]

just wondering, normal FL lights are 36W, so your 4x36W is only 144W.Also, when did you last change your FL tubes? They should be changed every 6 mths

[ikan]

That's right actually the light is only 144 watts. And the tank has about 400 litres so the light should be enough. The fluros is about 8 months old and still very bright.
This weekend I am going to replace the gravel and a new one and seal the trickle filter system as much as I can.
Perhaps I should put some peat at the bottom before I put the gravel.
I notice that my tap water has ph 7 but my tank is 7.5 - 7.8.
I will plant mostly anubias since they are tough and low maintenance.

This will be my last try, if this doesn't work I'll go tanganyikan.
I am fed up with plants keep on dying in my tank even after spending money on liquid and substrate fertiliser + regular water change.

[bclee]

Actually it is not enough. Need at least 200W of light! I would have gone for 300W with CO2 injection.

Otherwise most plants don't make it. That's why only those low light plants in your tank can survive.

Patience my friend. Plants don't just die without reasons. (Fishes sometimes do.)

BC

[ikan]

But that's 1 watt per 2.77 litres. Isn't that enough for plants like amazon swords, anubias barteri etc. Well they are not doing well at all.
I am very frustrated why others can grow plants and I can't.

[bclee]

Most ppl recommend min. 2W per gal(US) some go for as high as 4W/gal. Mine is 3.4W per gal!

2W/gal ==> 2W/3.8L => 1W/1.4L

Yours are way below that. Furthermore, your tank is 2' deep. That light of yours is definitely not enuf.

Sorry but have to say this. Unless you are willing to upgrade your lights, most plants cannot make it in your tank.

Most planted tank keepers follow this lighting guide.

BC

[juggler]

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On 8/28/2002 3:02:32 PM

I have eheim 2228 canister filter that says can handle up to 600 ltrs which I doubt. Maybe I should use it instead and turn off the trickle filtering system. At the moment I use it for my small pleco tank 150 liters since they love strong current. My amazon sword that I put in a pot also not growing well there and I have 2 2foot flores.

My tank has 4 4foot fluores so it's about 180 - 200 watts of light.

If I want to grow anubias plants do I still need CO2 injection? I have the CO2 valve that I bought from Clementi few years back but haven't got a tank. Many people don't even have CO2 injection and plant still grow okay[]

The fertiliser is root fertiliser, I used to use JBL liquid fertiliser and didn't help either so I stopped.

Tell me if I should just forget about growing plants.
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Don't give up yet.

I agree that planted tanks can still grow w/o CO2 injection. But they don't have filtration that removes the already lower amount of CO2.

If the majority of plants are Java Fern and Anubias, they are low light and can even be tied to driftwood. Then you don't even need substrate fertiliser or a layer of base fertiliser. And if you decide to plant some Sword plants etc, you can insert root fertiliser at that spot.

I think firstly you shd change to the 2228 filter.

I guess currently there's no base fertiliser. Never mind if your plant list remains like above. Take out the sword plant from the pot and plant in the gravel. Insert a root fertiliser for it. [Currently I also have lots of coral chips in my 4ft tank and the pH is 7 to 7.2, a very thin layer of base fertiliser which probably have become inert after these 2 years. But plants can grow if you choose the right ones.]

Feed your fish more so they can produce more "nutrients" for your plants. Otherwise you can supplement with liquid fertiliser.

Things should improve and plants shouldn't die but can grow quite slowly.

Good luck.

[vinz]

400l is about 100Gallons. Recommended for planted tanks is 2W/G for low light plants and 3W/G for high light plants.

So for amazons and anubias, you need about 200W of light.

Amazons need a rich substrate, so if you're changing your gravel, put in a layer of base fert like JBL. I think you can keep your old gravel. Also supplement with some substrate fertilisers. Root monsters are not bad.

Anubias can be planted in the substrate, or tied to wood. If planted, make sure the rhizome is not buried. I've read they need iron to grow well, and low light.

Java fern can take low light, but I have read need CO2 and high light to grow fast.

Both Java moss and Java fern will be taking their nutrients from the water.

You can dose fert all you want, but if there isn't enough light for the plants to photosynthesise, they can't make food and then won't grow.

I'm guessing your tank is low on nitrates, potassium and light. DIY CO2 should be enough for low light tank. Your problems I think is a combo of the above and not just one factor. First step is up your lights, start DIY CO2 again and see any response.

Lastly pleased check your private messages in a few minutes. Its under your 'profile' on the menu bar above.

[bclee]

... just read my own post... wording don't sound so friendly... don't meant it that way...

My point is that there are very very few plants you can grow under the current lighting you have.

BC

[Vican]

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On 8/28/2002 5:01:27 PM

That's right actually the light is only 144 watts. And the tank has about 400 litres so the light should be enough. The fluros is about 8 months old and still very bright.
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The tubes might still look very bright, but the spectrum of light for the plant has decreased by 50% by 6 mths, so you still need to change your FLs now. The decrease is generally not easily detected by our eyes

[ikan]

Ooohhh, so after this time it's actually the low light wattage that caused my plants from failing to grow. I though it was more than adequate.
Maybe I should use different type of light. If I add more fluros light it gets a bit crowded on the top. I wonder what type of light I should try or add.
Compact light is not readily available here, maybe I should try small MH.
Can you guys recommend something? And how much additional wattage should I add. Obviously the more the better but I am trying to find a happy medium here where the plants will grow nicely and the tank don't get too hot in summer.
Still this weekend I am going to clean the tank remove all the java moss and I am not going to add more plants until I add more light. I think I will keep my trickle filter running at this stage.
Thanks guys. Much appreciate for all the help so far.

[bclee]

Here is a page of this guy who successfully use a trickle wet/dry filter with planted tank.

BC

[juggler]

Compact flourescents (PL lights) is available at Nature Aquarium (check out the LFS listing for add/tel). Not that expensive. You can ask Mr Chan there to guide you to DIY the lighting into your hood. If you get another 2 x 36W PL lights, then you will have 216W altogether! If no space to add, can suggest changing all to PL lights. Good for long term success. Hope you have enough ventilation above your tank as PL lights are quite hot. Good luck.

"The most important factor in the success of a planted tank is adequate lighting." -- Hoa G. Nguyen

[bclee]

How about VHO lights? Those are popular in US... not sure about Australia.

MH is good. Only concern is heat.

BC

[vinz]

A suggestion for MH by Ach in this thread. Scroll down till you see the images. Maybe you can find an equivalent there? You'll need to get 6,500K bulbs.

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On 8/29/2002 9:20:21 AM

Can you guys recommend something? And how much additional wattage should I add. Obviously the more the better but I am trying to find a happy medium here where the plants will grow nicely and the tank don't get too hot in summer.

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No, not the more the better. You should add enough for the plants you intend to have. Too much and you will get algae problems. For low light plants, 200-250Watts for your 100 US Gal tank. For high light plants, 300W or more.

You mentioned summer, so you're not in Singapore. Where are you?