ADA style stand and frameless tank

**ankank** · 29th Jul 2007, 02:25

Originally Posted by tcampbell

the glass pipes get dirty fast

I almost feared that it would be this way, from my experience with clear tubing clear equipment almost never stays clear.

Day two drained all water and refilled
Day three drained all water and refilled
(...)
Day five drained half water and refilled
Day six drained half water and refilled
(...)
Day eight drained half water and refilled
(...)
Day eleven drained half water and refilled
(...)
Day fourteen drained half water and refilled
(...)
Now Day 21 drained half the water and refilled

Excuse me for asking, but why on earth would you do water changes within the cycling period? You're constantly disturbing any process. This only makes your tank cycle process longer. Yes, there is empiric data to back up that statement, if you like I can look it up.

Edit: The proof is done by Olaf Deters, a well known and respected german aquarist on his page about the cycling process (in German). Using nitrification simulation he conclusively shows that a water change of 50% disturbs and a water change of 60% basically reboots the cycling process every time. It is safe to say that the best strategy is not to change any water until the tank has fully cycled. (Edit²: Online translation services fail miserably to translate the mentioned web page to anything near comprehensible English. If you like, I can provide a quick translation of the respective paragraphs at "Wasserwechsel und Mulmabsaugen".)

**Aeon** · 29th Jul 2007, 10:37

The best way to remove ammonia built up in a tank is still water changes IMO.
Water changes shouldn't reboot cycling. Maybe WC have different effects on cycling in different parts of the world.

**ankank** · 29th Jul 2007, 11:13

Originally Posted by Aeon

The best way to remove ammonia built up in a tank is still water changes

The best way to remove ammonia are nitrite bacteria. That's the point of cycling a tank: To build nitrite bacteria which are feeding on ammonia, and to build nitrate bacteria which are feeding on nitrite. When doing large water changes while cycling you starve nitrite and nitrate bacteria and extend the cycling process considerably.

There's nothing wrong with frequent water changes (although, for a fully cycled and well working tank to remove ammonia they shouldn't be necessary). Just don't do them before the tank has completely cycled.

**tcampbell** · 29th Jul 2007, 12:50

From past experince and theexperience of others on this and other forums I decided to do the frequent water changes during cycling. I was in no rush to have it fully cycled, I just wanted to get it up and running with no algea.
I have noticed that many people setting up their tanks with similiar specs are fully of algae during the inital setup, sometimes they never get it cleared up. Is it by the mistakes they make? Possibly. But I have also noticed that all of them seem to never do frequent water changes during the inital stages.

That said, my Amonia level never climbed very high (1.0 at the highest) and was down to 0 by the 9th day. Actually not that bad as many people take weeks to cycle a tank.

Liek wise my NO2 only rose to 2.0 on the 9th day (when NH4 was at it's lowest) and then went on a decline from there.

My plant mass isn't huge, and I was trying a with fish cycling process. I wasn't wishing to kill all the fish or shrimp with high levels of NH4 and I found that the water changes did this.

Was this the best was. I am sure it wasn't in all cases, but in mine it worked.
Do I think it might hav ebeen better to not do water changes and allow the tank to fully cycle before I did them? Maybe.

Would doing so have caused an algea outbreak or any kind, I am not sure.

"extend the cycling process considerably." - well if that is true, then my tank could have been cycled a lot faster, but the fish and shrimp in the tank would have suffered due to the elevated levels of NH4 and NO2.

I will consider it next time for a fishless cycle.

Thomas

**Aeon** · 29th Jul 2007, 16:27

During initial cycling, the nitrifying bacteria are not established yet so it makes sense to do water changes (unless the water source contains more harmful N). Without water changes, the ammonia levels might overtake the establishment of nitrifying bacteria and then you have green water.

And even with a fully established filtration system, water changes are still needed. Natural waters are ever-replenishing. But in an aquarium, we can only replenish through water changes. When tank water is not changed, there are others things being accumulated besides what bacteria can feed on. Like excess fertilisers, heavy metals, excess waste, pathogens, etc.

**tcampbell** · 29th Jul 2007, 18:11

Originally Posted by Aeon

During initial cycling, the nitrifying bacteria are not established yet so it makes sense to do water changes (unless the water source contains more harmful N). Without water changes, the ammonia levels might overtake the establishment of nitrifying bacteria and then you have green water.

And even with a fully established filtration system, water changes are still needed. Natural waters are ever-replenishing.

That is my opinion completely and why I did the water changes and will continue 50% weekly.
I am sure there are cases and studies which wil prove it unnecessary and actually harmful in cycling a tank as were pointed out by Freddy, but I feel for me this was most effective.

**ankank** · 29th Jul 2007, 21:07

Originally Posted by Aeon

During initial cycling, the nitrifying bacteria are not established yet

Of course not. That is the point of cycling: To build up nitrite bacteria. I still stand by my statement that water changes extend the cycling period. That being said ...

and then you have green water.

... I can see both your point when it comes to algae. I have cycled quite some tanks without water change, but I have never had "green water" to speak of. Even if you mentioned it jokingly before, this may actually really be something that is different between our countries. I don't know the quality of your tap water, here in Germany it is controlled to the point where its quality is actually better than any bottled water you can buy (from the water company's fact sheet, ammonia is constantly < 0,02 mg/l). So here, the problem with excessive ammonia build-up may not be anything like what you experience.

And even with a fully established filtration system, water changes are still needed.

I agree, I was only talking about changing water while cycling. I believe in "freshening up" the water frequently, and at the very least, I can see my fish enjoying it very much.

Even if there are some aquarists here who are successfully experimenting with so-called "Altwasserbecken" (literally "old water tanks") where a careful selection of plants and livestock leads to a tank that can last several months without water changes.

Edit:

Originally Posted by tcampbell

my tank could have been cycled a lot faster, but the fish and shrimp in the tank would have suffered due to the elevated levels of NH4 and NO2.

Ah, also something we do very differently. Over here, it is so common to insert fish only after the tank has fully cycled that practically noone does otherwise. Shrimp are still uncommon amongst fishkeepers here, which I cannot understand, but they gain popularity.

**stephen chung** · 11th Aug 2007, 00:59

tcampell,

Are those pipes from Aquamagic glass or plastic?

**Aeon** · 11th Aug 2007, 10:50

AquaticMagic. It was mentioned in the earlier pages.

**tcampbell** · 11th Aug 2007, 17:13

As Aeon mentioned, yes, AquaticMagic. They are great though difficult to clean, as with any glass pipes and the rounded end doesn't help much.
Bleach and water and high pressure hose.

**stephen chung** · 11th Aug 2007, 18:24

I just saw something similar at Biotope, but is from china...

**tcampbell** · 11th Aug 2007, 21:48

I think there are many different versions coming out now, as many peopel are unwilling to pay the extreme price of ADA products. I know there is a similiar version which came out in Taiwan the other year.

**doppelbanddwarf** · 11th Aug 2007, 22:20

Ooooo didn't notice when i went to Biotope just now. Stephen did you look at the price. Could you pm me the price. Also how's the quality?

**stephen chung** · 12th Aug 2007, 00:13

I didn't ask. As Thio was setting up the tank. He say he only have that set now and the rest will be coming in next week. I have not seen the AquaticMagic one before so I won't know if they are exactly the same.