New Tank Setup- Help...

[mrs budak]

Certainly, it is the moderator's call to decide quality of this forum.

[Simon]

arrrggghhhh.. changes takes time, we all want a forum of higher quality, places like APD didnt change overnight. Newbies get slime for asking a simple question, without giving relevant details. perharps a different culture? but I hope AQ wouldnt eventually turn to that nature. we have to teach newbies to search for their own questions in the existing archive, that I agree. many times, we see the same old questions asked...


eve, lsz... cool down please

[PeterGwee]

Well...actually moderators works like the boss of a shop....You should know that the customer is always right lor...That is quality service...But if the forum has to come to a state where the moderator gets frustrated and refuse to answer a newbie no matter how stupid the question is..then I'm afraid the death of the forum could be near...I surely hope not. [] ....The forum can improve but there will always be newbies around...so you can always expect them to ask such questions lor...maybe the design of the forum has to change...login and will pop you straight to the such function...or newbies click the FAQ section for a start (so the FAQ section must have wider newbie form of Q&A lor)

[vinz]

Well, how does a newbie know what is or is not a so-called "stupid question", since they have no idea where to start. This forum is big enough now to be hard to search and the newbies don't even know what to search for.

It's also important how we respond to these questions. One way is to tell them off, but that frightens them away and then we have would failed in our goal of promoting and nurturing the hobby.

Another way is to point them to the correct resources, showing them where to gather the info and invite them to post here again when they have questions after doing the research. This, me thinks, is a better compromise... we don't end up typing till our hands fall off and the newbie doesn't feel ignored or worse, flamed, bbq'd and tossed in the bin of silly newbies.

Yeah, of course, we still get the few silly questions on and off. But hey, this is a public forum and it's common pitfall. We just have to tolerate those and if possible, educate the authors.

In the long run, as the forum gets bigger, the mods and admins will have to find ways to make it easier for newbies to get started, and yet, nice, comfy and relevant to the rest. Other forumers too, can contribute with constructive suggestions. Since, we've just passed our first birthday, we should re-examine the forum and see what more we can improve. Given that the forum is fairly matured, perhaps the first step is to look at getting newbies off their feet without having to ask innocent, supposedly "stupid" questions.

[chia2k]

newbie suggestion ^^this is just a suggestion . dun flame me please. before further reading , please note this is just a SUGGESTION[]

how abt setting up a new forum section but call it newbie corner
(its like the auqtic FAQ)
1. give them the basic . - how to set up tank (base fert, int filter)
- mature tank b4 adding fish
- what lvl is just right(co2 lvl, ph lvl, No lvl )
- wat is the amount of light needed ( eg 3w per gal )

2. a bit of trouble shooting - find out the most common problems noobs face
and provide answers to these

3. links - links to informative sites like the krib .

[sLapshock]

i agree to VINZ ...

[mrs budak]

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On 12/23/2002 9:56:43 AM

Well, how does a newbie know what is or is not a so-called "stupid question", since they have no idea where to start. This forum is big enough now to be hard to search and the newbies don't even know what to search for.

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This is a self-perpetuating problem. As long as newbie concerns do not get addressed adequately, you are going to see the main forum being flooded by newbie questions which make it even harder for them to search. So what do newbies do? Any new question which pops into mind, post it on the forum instead of doing own homework. How many times have you opened a thread and groaned "this question again?quot;

To be quite frank, some moderators also encourage such behaviour. Instead of telling the thread-starter to refer to resources available or at least do some homework, moderators are so "kind" as to go through the same Q&A-what size is your tank, how many fish, what plants, what gravel, what fertilizer... How many times have you all done that already and yet newbies continue to post questions without thinking.

I participate in different forums too and a key difference between those which truly stimulate one's mind and the social forums are the kind of questions and matters which are raised. I have seen some pretty educational threads on this forum, one of the latest ones being the algae thread. Another distinctive factor is the discipline of the participants. You cannot have people hijacking the threads for their own purpose.

Speaking of which, I'm very guilty of it now. Perhaps someone should start a thread on this. This forum is getting very frustrating even for someone who can't claim to be an aquaria expert. I do not think I am the only one to say that most of the time you just read the titles of the threads and don't even bother to open them.

I continue to stand by my assertion that stupid questions exist. And these questions do not relate to whether one is a newbie or not. I'm referring to questions posted without heed to how it may help people answer them (e.g. my plants have brown spots what do I do... without mentioning the plant type, water parameters, fertiliser, how long it has been planted, etc), or questions asked simply because the poster is too lazy to search for an answer elsewhere. I certainly hope it is not this forum's objective to encourage laziness.

An FAQ will certainly help but why re-invent the wheel when websites like thekrib.com already has a pretty comprehensive one? I noticed that this link was posted on the FAQ section. How many people are actually encouraged to go through these links? Instead people go straight to the individual forums and start posting their stupid questions irritating the hell out of the regulars.

There should be a sticky thread which addresses "how to ask questions on this forum." I am not kidding. Many times the answers provided are as good as the questions asked. I've been sorely tempted a few times to post the "correct" answers just to get the person asking to wake up his ideas. For god's sake, how many answers can there be to a question such as "do lowlight plants exist?quot;

These are my unhumble comments. I do not claim to be very patient or very knowledgeable in aquaria, but after spending some time here, one thing I can say for sure is I certainly can ask better questions, or knock on people's head to wake up their ideas (as I do at work; fortunately my colleagues "evolved" quite quickly so this is not so necessary these days).

[vinz]

Mrs Budak,

Well, I agree with a lot of what you've said. But knocking ppl on their heads are not constructive here. Your collegues cannot run away from you, they need the job... at least they can't just up and find a new job easily.

Here, newbies will go elsewhere if they're snubbed. We don't want them to go elsewhere, we want them to stay and learn. Agree we shouldn't spoon feed them, but the other extreme of knocking their heads don't help either. I rather tell them where and how to get the info they need.

I don't question your intent, but your methods are scaring the newbies. Non-newbies who ask lazy questions will get the idea, but not the newbies who are not familiar with the forum culture yet.

As for your suggestions of a sticky thread, it has already been initiated.

[FC]

Dear all,

Very good and constructive discussions about raising the standard of AQ.
Allow me to voice my humble opinions.

I came into AQ about 2 months ago with much zeal because I thought I finally found a place that I can call "Home". Prior to AQ, for the past nearly 3 years, I had been frequent on many well known sites, emailing to their commenter, asking friends, reading countless books on planted tanks, visiting nearly all LFS to get advices, etc. I even begin to consider twice for any lucrative overseas postings, just to stay by my tank. For 3 years, I think I had gone quite a distance in pursuing this hobby. Having said that, I am still a beginner like what the www.killies.com said in its’ homepage.

Ever since I was in AQ, I had not been going other site because I feel at home being with the locals. I like here so much that I even pay premiums to login while on vacations. However, there was a turn recently, much sooner than I expect ... AQ has lost its' magic on me. It is something that I do not like to see it happen but it did. The reason why I voice out now because AQ still matters to me (to many alike, I hope) and I think it is high time for AQ to reconsider the web set-up.

The postings are becoming stale by repeated questions, not withstanding "innocent" ones. I begin to select topics and sometime not login at all for few days. The forum needs to be treated with respect and people should be demanded to do homework before asking. Please do not allow for anyone to throw whatever they feel they need to. By continuing this so called “culture”, the rest of us here will look like fools to hang in a place that looks forever standstill in beginer stage. Do not forget, we are all in the internet, the whole world is looking at us, we as hobbyists have dignity/integrity to upkeep, not just the owner(s) of AQ.

My suggestions:
1) Put it as your First Priority to set up a dedicated forum for beginners with FAQ throw in. Down here, set a basic understanding that any new postings require prior reading of the FAQ. For certain, FAQ needs to be updated as frequent as needed to quench our new guys thirst for knowledge. So, even this corner can look respectful.
2) The current forum remains to serve the intermediates and advance hobbyists. This is the place to make discussions, bring in new ideas, etc. This is the place where AQ can stick its’ head up and put it’s flag in the international world with activities like planted tank competition, own researches, new findings, etc.

Let us continue to improve on AQ and make it a place where we can stand up and call it HOME.

Nothing personal, please correct me if I am in any way wrong.



Have fun.

[budak]

chia2k and FC's suggestion for separate newbie & more advance discussion forums seconded. That should give no further reason for put-downs, unless people can't even be bothered to read which forum should they post in.

of course, regulars will have to take it upon themselves to "service" the beginner's forum, or it becomes a trashbin. Here, clear stickies referring newbies to the FAQ, fish/plant databases, keynote threads should help somewhat in reducing ad nauseum type questions. Really, some folks don't even seem to read the very thread they are posting in, which already contains the answer they are looking for!

[timebomb]

Nothing personal, please correct me if I am in any way wrong.
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Nothing wrong with your opinions, FC. They were things I felt all along too.

Vinz, what this forum needs is more netiquette and discipline. If you want to measure success by numbers alone, I would say this is one of the most successful forums I've seen. More than a thousand members and hundreds of posts a day, what more can one say? But success is not measured by numbers. There's also this thing called quality.

I would suggest that the moderators here teach the beginners to teach themselves. And you don't have to be so polite and nice all the time. If people get offended just because you ask him to go and read the archives, ignore him. You can never please everyone and trying to do that will please no one.

We need head-knockers too and I really like the way Mrs Budak knocks heads. Don't get me wrong. I had my fair share of getting my head knocked too when I was a newbie on the internet. But I have learnt to take it in the right spirit. When someone knocks my head, it's usually because he or she is trying to teach me something. I appreciate that. The guy whose head was knocked by Mrs Budak should have thanked her. Unfortunately, he appeared to be offended which is rather sad, if you ask me.

Have rules. And enforce them. Don't tolerate people who keep asking beginners' questions when the answers are easily available in the archives. Tell those who quote unnecessary text that they are wasting bandwidth and everybody's time. Don't let people treat this forum like their own personal conversational backyard. Posts that are of interest to only one other person should not be sent to the forum, for instance, the ubiquitious "you have pm". Don't allow posts to be hijacked and tell people off when they interrupt others who are trying to have a serious discussion.

Vinz, you were concerned that the newbies will leave if they are snubbed. But take note too that the old-timers will unsubscribe themselves and quietly fade away if nothing is done to improve the quality of the posts on this forum. Just like FC, I like this place because here is where my fellow-Singaporeans are. I know the moderators here are trying their best and I appreciate that a lot. I know too it takes time to improve but you have to start taking the first steps now.

Try to learn from others. The APD would not have such a long history and be so successful if they were not doing many things right.

Loh K L

[Allen_1971]

Guys and Gals... for the sake of disciplin, I've started a new thread in the chit chat section where we can discuss your various opinions and together see how we can make AQ a better place.

Without doubt, your comments and feedback are important, and we would like to know your ideas on how we can improve AQ

Click here to go to the new thread.