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Thread: What is the different between i-Flo pipe set vs ADA Lily pipes?

  1. #41
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    Here are some points for you guys who have some time to research and to consider with respect to the "quality" or lack of...

    a) All glass are not created equal (i.e. some are scratch resistent, hence higher cost).
    b) Not all glass blowers have the same skill. Quality assurance from the manufacturer will ensure minimum standards.
    c) There is a science to the diameter of the piping to the outflow "final size" and shape (see note #$# below).
    d) The shape of the outflows can also "remove" surface scum IF it is designed to disturb the water surface.


    NOTE: #$#
    Fluid dynamics, I recall this term called "mass flow rate".
    For a fixed cross section there is a certain velocity from the pressure in the pipe.
    All things equal, as the cross section gets larger the velocity slows down so that mass flow rate remains constant.
    Similarly, if the cross section gets smaller, the velocity increase to keep the constant mass flow rate.
    This is why the outflow grows larger in cross section to the "final size" mentioned in point (c).
    Mainly, to slow down the velocity of the water and "spread" the flow.

    Using an Eheim 2028 filter as an example (Yes, I like Eheim... ).
    If your filter is 1050 lph (this is not the actual velocity but you get the point...) and the diameter grows to 4 x the pipe diameter of 16/22mm.
    Then the "velocity" of the water slows to 262.5 lph at the edge [final size mentioned in point (c)] of the outflow.
    celticfish
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  2. #42
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    Let me try to enlighten the members here. It is a guesstimate on my part and maybe I am right but also I could be wrong. Take it with a pinch.........

    There might be a reason why some equipment are cheap while the others are expensive. It could be from the exchange rate from one country to another or that a country charge taxes from sales of a certain kind of product. Also it doesn't help if the distributor or even the front line sale shop decide to markup the cost of a product. That's their business or it's their way of doing business.

    But let's take a look at the product from ADA. This brand has been an issue here in this forum. Mostly it's about the cost of their product. To many, the price to own one of their product is in the premium range. This alone has put off many in this hobby to own one of their product. But it did not prevent the others from purchasing it. Why is that so? What do these people see in such expensive item?

    One factor that has failed to be mentioned by anyone in this forum is R & D, the Research and Development stage. ADA didn't create all the product that came from the ADA brand in 1 day. How many version of the lily pipe have been created before the final product is being chosen to be put on sale? What type of glass did they choose? Why was the diameter in the final product to be a certain diameter, why couldn't it be larger or smaller? There might be quite a number of different version of lily pipe being made and tested to find which is best suited for a certain application.

    All that question and more is just for the lily pipe alone. What about the ADA filter line? Why must ADA choose Iwaki pump over Eheim or even Aquabee? Why use metal for the canister filter instead of plastic like the other canister filter found in the world? Why the need to create a different filter media product than other brand?

    To claim that a hobbyist is just paying for brand alone is absurb. We as the end user do not know how the final product that we see in the lfs actually come to be. How long does it takes from an idea to the actual piece of equipment we use now and how much does that cost the designer/creator/owner to make and perfected before selling it to the market? It is very easy for a person to give a negative comment for an expensive equipment but it is very hard for a person to make a similar product and perfected that item until it has no issue to crop up before selling it to the mass. The aquarium keeping industry is a niche market, it is for those who wants to have but not necessary to have. Any exotic stuff entering this niche market will of course command a premium price.

    Another thing I see is the supporter thingy being mentioned. The term ADA supporter is being seen here and there in various thread. As far as I know, ADA is a business entity, not a political party. You are not an ADA supporter if you are using ADA product. You are just an end user to a product you want to use. Nothing more nothing less. You are not a chicken rice supporter if you decide to eat chicken rice right? If by eating chicken rice and in turn you became a chicken rice supporter, can you eat duck rice too? Wouldn't that made you a duck rice supporter then? How many things will you be a supporter in your whole life? This is also another absurb theory in the making. Do not create something which doesn't exist. It could divide the forum which we are adamant to prevent from happening.

    Hope this helps!
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  3. #43
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    I totally greed with you on the R & D thing as i was used to be an designer in product design long ago, it really took alot of error to finalise a product which involve in many manpower work to get the right thing to market out. And it took certain period of marketing and selling before they can get back their cost spent on it, and sometime the product may not even able to sell on the market or break even.

    Any product has its value on the market, depending on your needs, deep pocket($) i guess, or even the cheap one(which is functionable if use correctly). Just get what suits you will do whether is ADA or replica one.

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  4. #44
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    very insightful post BFG. those are definitely very valid points raised. however, we may want to consider a few other points to truly shed some light on the matter this is purely my humble opinion and i may be right, or i may be wrong. i'm just writing this so that as hobbyists we can consider the whole picture from both ends of the spectrum before making a choice.

    I agree fully with you about exchange rate and distributor markup. exchange rate is something beyond everyone's control and fluctuations in exchange rate do affect the price of products. however, both japan and singapore have very stable currencies that are somewhat pegged to the US dollar and as such, while an effect is created, i do believe that this effect is not very high. Further, there are other products we get from Japan without such a high premium attached to them.

    Distributor markup is a huge factor. I've heard people tell me buying ADA products in HK costs them as low as 1/2 the price, and my personal experience in BKK is that ADA products cost about 2/3 the price. This is, as you've said, the distributor's prerogative and it's the way they do business and how they make the profit that makes them want to stay in business.

    Another factor to consider, of course, is the rising fuel costs. With rising fuel costs, transportation costs increase and of course that translates to added costs for the buyer. However, this is of course something that applies to every brand, and I believe ADA's high charges came before the fuel hike anyway so this might not be so large a factor.

    Moving on to R&D, I agree fully with you that R&D costs have to be factored into the cost of the product. However, R&D costs apply equally to all companies. I'm sure Eheim and Aquabee did R&D before developing their pumps, I'm sure Eheim Hydor Rena dn Fluval did R&D before developing their filters, I'm sure Wondergro Dr Mallick Seachem and JBL did R&D before developing their fert line and even Tom Barr did his R&D before formulating the EI methodology (which he offered for free)... I'm sure you get my drift.

    We can't assume that just because one product costs 5 times more than the other, the company necessarily spent 5 times more on R&D to develop the product. While ADA might have had 100 different lily pipe designs in contemplation and testing, it also may only have had 1. We don't know and thus we can't peg the higher cost to R&D This is something we will only know generally with the company's financial reports and specifically if you're in the company's management.

    I have my reasons to believe that ADA's R&D for certain products (not all) really didn't cost them that much, but that's my personal belief and not even an opinion, so I won't post them here as it leads to needless speculation

    Exotic stuff commanding a premium in this niche hobby is only natural. I have no quarrel with that at all. However, when normal/mediocre staff command a premium, that's where I voice out strongly. I have myself on occassion used ADA products when it's truly "exotic" with no peer. One very good example is ADA Africana soil. I can't think of any other way to lower the ph into the low 5s without staining the water. There's simply no feasible alternative in my knowledge. So no choice, pay the premium and get the soil to create the best environoment for my apistos. Same goes for exotic fish. I'd gladly pay 10 times more for a zebra oto than a normal oto, and high prices for quality apistos because they are scarce and command a premium and there really isn't any alternative in the market.

    However, when certain other products have as high as 50-60x markup, that's where I would say branding plays a large part.

    Further, as we really can't comment on R&D and most/all other factors apply equally to all products, one possible conclusion we are led to is the branding. It really isn't that absurd that branding can command a huge premium. Examples abound in every industry. Look at Gucci/LV bags. When you talk to people who buy these bags, do they say "Oh, the quality of the bags is better" or "I like LV's designers the bags are pretty"? Majority of the time I dare say no. Usually the response I get is "Hey, it's Gucci, man! It's worth every cent because it's Gucci!" That is branding pure and simple, nothing further

    Finally the "supporter" point. ADA supporter isn't a coined term of art. It merely refers to someone who supports the ADA brand. I agree with you that just because someone uses ADA, he doesn't automatically become an ADA supporter. As mentioned above, I myself have used ADA products on occassion and I can assure you I'm probably the last person anyone thinks of as an ADA supporter

    To use back your chicken rice example, I'm not a chicken rice supporter just because I happened to eat chicken rice, or even if I happen to like chicken rice very much, or even if chicken rice is my favourite food. However, if everytime someone asks me I say "You must eat Chatterbox chicken rice if you like chicken rice, it's the best!" and "Chatterbox chicken rice is expensive because it's the best, man! Every cent more you pay is an indication of quality!" and "There's no alternative out there...if you can afford it you must eat only Chatterbox chicken rice. Only if you can't afford it then you go eat the others", then I'm afraid to say that I am very much a Chatterbox chicken rice supporter

    I feel that this doesn't create a division so much as it allows newer folks to the hobby to make educated choices. For example, if one particularly vocal member of the forum is a Gex supporter, and every time a new user posts asking about substrate, he writes a long post about how Gex is the best and there's no comparison, the new user might get the impression that really Gex is the best out there and there's no alternative. However, if the new user is aware of the fact that this person is a Gex supporter, he may take the post with a pinch of salt and accord higher weight to other less lengthy posts that offer alternatives. As such, awareness of the inclinations of is important to help others make their choice

    Again, I state that this is purely my opinion. Hopefully it helps in the discussion.

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    For a lighter moment...

    R&D in China = "Receive & Duplicate"

    The past is HISTORY... the future is MYSTERY

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    arg...... so....long reply.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTS View Post
    For a lighter moment...

    R&D in China = "Receive & Duplicate"

    LOl, this is just one moment in time. Just like what Japanese used to do long time ago with magnetic tapes etc. Like what my mum used to tell me. At one time everything from England was the best but the knock off's from Japan was 3 times cheaper so she had to endure premature product failure.

    reverse engineer> duplicate> sell cheaper> make improvements> innovate>leader.

    ----

    This is not rocket science-more of art in blowing glass. Many have tried to make the glass look like the lily pipes but they fail to get the thickness for strength hence imperfections in the glass in the knock offs. This is what was whispered to me from a knock off artist.
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    can't it be mold? make cheaper alternative using plastic
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    Anything's possible nowadays Robert.

    I bought a few of those clip on heads a year ago in Singapore. Didn't work like any of the pipes in the market-Economical or designer.
    You can if you dare to fail - Stan Chung

  10. #50
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    i just bought the ADA lily pipes from the fellow AQ member yesterday.
    In comparsion with the ANS pipes.
    1)The glass used i believe are different, in my opinion are of better clarity.
    2)When lifted slightly above the water level mark, creates a turbulence of air bubbles in the "cup" area. Its less noisy. ( Whether air bubbles created are more ? i not too sure)
    3)Workmanship are of bettter quality.

    In my opinion, you need to try out ADA system to see if its really that good?

    why is there people using it thou the high price ?

    There are other alternatives , which may or may not work as well as ADA.
    If you can use other alternatives and achieve much better results , then stick to using it.

    Please don't let hearsay , stop you from trying ADA.
    Good or no good ? Just try it.........

    Just my humble opinions.
    Last edited by tcy81; 7th Aug 2008 at 21:22. Reason: spelling
    Chee Yong

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    Another thing I notice for my i-flo pipe, it did not create the vortex that the ADA pipe did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacian View Post
    Another thing I notice for my i-flo pipe, it did not create the vortex that the ADA pipe did.
    I've try ANS lily pipe and it does create vortex flow.

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    mine also, it does create vortex if you raise it about 1cm below water surface
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    mine also, it does create vortex if you raise it about 1cm below water surface
    Does ANS lily pipe comes with diameter 17mm?
    Last edited by blue33; 8th Aug 2008 at 13:23.

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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue33 View Post
    I've try ANS lily pipe and it does create vortex flow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    mine also, it does create vortex if you raise it about 1cm below water surface
    i will try to take a photo later tonight or tomorrow of the vortex of ADA lily pipe.
    Chee Yong

  16. #56
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    No problem for my ANS lily pipe to create the vortex, just the i-flo didn't.
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    I think it's also how powerful the power of your water output and how close the tip of the cup is to the water surface.

    Theoretically cheap or expensive if you meet this criteria, there should be a vortex unless the shape of the cup is seriously flawed. I suspect flow is not powerful enough due to diameter larger?
    You can if you dare to fail - Stan Chung

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanChung View Post
    I think it's also how powerful the power of your water output and how close the tip of the cup is to the water surface.

    Theoretically cheap or expensive if you meet this criteria, there should be a vortex unless the shape of the cup is seriously flawed. I suspect flow is not powerful enough due to diameter larger?
    Does it mean 13mm is an ideal one instead of larger one to create strong flow? Saw those ADA Metal power pipe, pic , they have squeezed outflow part to create strong flow.

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    DOes this vortex really help removing the surface oil? It does not really help in my tank, although it does less compare to no vortex. In my opinion surface skimmer work better. Does anyone experience the same?
    -Robert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    DOes this vortex really help removing the surface oil? It does not really help in my tank, although it does less compare to no vortex. In my opinion surface skimmer work better. Does anyone experience the same?
    Yes it is, unless you have created a vortex effect, if not the oil film will be still there.

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