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Thread: Comments on our Gathering – 29 Nov 2003

  1. #1
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    Comments on our Gathering – 29 Nov 2003

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    Hi all,

    While the gathering was generally considered a success, I was too busy catching fry and packing fish, that I didn't really have a chance to talk to anyone.

    I did enjoy myself, however I was upset by one incident. The purpose of this gathering is for HOBBYISTS to gather, talk and buy killifish.

    A question was brought up as to why I brought 5 pairs of a certain species. This was to to make sure that 5 hobbyists could return home with a pair each, and not ONE person hoarding FIVE pairs!!

    Please note that this gathering was meant for hobbyists and not for people who have commercial interest to grab all the fish. In the future, the seller reverses the rights to sell, and not to sell.

    It is not by default, that auctioning is the only process, if the fish is in demand but it will work well if many individuals are interested in the fish, and not when ONE person trys to get all the fish.

    What I also saw, were hobbyists in school uniforms during the gathering. One does not expect them to complete with fat wallets in the auction, or do we?.

    I am aware that two other hobbyists were left with no choice but to give up the chance of owning the fish. The young boy who was determined to get the fish impressed me and I guess the other 2 decided not to turn up at the auction.

    It is perfectly ok with me, for people who have commercial interest to stay in the group, as we need YOU to bring in more species which we do not have locally. Your presence here will benefit us, however please do not try to monopolized the market by grabbing all the fish of certain species at the gathering. This is meant for hobbyists and not you alone, and your actions will make you look very unfriendly. If you are interested, I'm sure you can always make separate arrangement with the hobbyists and work out private transactions.

    The faces of the disappointment of the 3 hobbyists (2 students and an adult), is deeply engraved in my heart, when the 5 pairs of fish was called for auction just because 1 person wants 4 pairs.

    This has bothered me for the past 2 days and is still bothering me.

    One other thing.

    I hope the next gathering will be a discussion gathering or meet up for tea, food and friendly swaps rather than just sale of fish.

    Au and I could hardly have the chance to talk to anyone else as we so busy at the sales counter. I do not wish that the future gatherings is all about selling and it is not beneficial to new hobbyists, since knowledge is not imparted to them. It doesn't look really healthy, and to me, it seems more like a warehouse sale rather than a gathering.

    Pardon me if I am too frank, I do wish to make the gathering healthier and more informative.

    Moderators, feel free to remove, delete, or edit if you find any part of the post inappropriate.

    Regards,
    Gwee Sia Meng
    AKA 08742
    SAA 163
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    Hi Sia Meng,

    just thought i'd give my opinions. yes i do agree that perhaps some students may not have the financial ability like some adults have but there are still students who do have that ability. if in that case, we could have a separate auction for those who are still studying, just for the purposes of letting them get some of the fish that they've been eyeing.

    i for one was pretty disappointed that i couldn't get your Simp. auratus but it was all fair play because i was too late to the cash register maybe some other time i'd get my hands on the auratus. even Ronnie thinks its a pretty little fish. to be frank, i was pondering the decision to buy the fish due to the price. i usually consider first before buying but i will never ask for a discount. i believe your fish and anyone else's fish is worth the price that each species commands.

    talking about the 'warehouse sale' effect, yes i was pretty astounded to see a whole lot of people in the shop when i was expecting just those from this forum. the turnout bodes well for the forum and for the killifish scene in Singapore. however, i do agree that some people did not get what they come for. but there's always another time and affected people can contact the respective breeders, provided the breeders have time to entertain their queries.

    on the learning bit, i learnt quite a bit from Au when i had a conversation with him regarding SAAs and pretty much would like to learn from u too during the gathering but u were quite busy. well there's always a next time to listen and learn.

    and yes, my apologies for knocking over the container containing the fulminantis. didn't notice the containers behind me while i was making my way into the back area.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    Re: Comments on our Gathering – 29 Nov 2003

    Quote Originally Posted by gweesm1
    Moderators, feel free to remove, delete, or edit if you find any part of the post inappropriate.
    Sia Meng, your post is a reflection of how you felt about the gathering and I find nothing in the content that amounts to malicious or defamatory.

    Your feedback will allow us as individuals and as a group, to improve upon what is overlooked. Deleting your post would be a loss to the forum.

    Being one of those who were behind the scene and helping out, my appreciation and thanks, to you and others, for catering to the unexpected turnout.

    At a personal level, and not as moderator, I feel that more exchanges amongst hobbyists would have left us yearning for more such gatherings.

    For those with commercial interests, I personally feel that private arrangements would have been more fruitful, as the seller would be able to gauge his breeding programme or breeder stock, to your requirements.
    It is, as far as I can see, a win-win situation for both parties.

    Such are the things that need to be ironed out and I'm sure we'll all* get better with future gatherings.

    * All, in this case, includes fellow forumers, organisers, commercial buyers and hobbyists. In short, everybody.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    The number of people turnout on the gathering reflects that this hobby is kicking off here in Singapore. There will be more to expect during the subsequent gatherings.

    Firstly, let me apologise for my lateness for delivering the killifishes to the gathering late. I was tiedup with my office work co-ordinating on something very important and I can't just left for the gathering without getting it done.

    During the gathering, I was too tiedup helping to record the sale and have no time to exchange ideas with fellow hobbyists. Perhaps you guys may want to post your queries here or even share you breeding techniques with the rest.
    Au SL

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    My apologies to all. I have full intention to go to this gathering but alas, some urgent matters prevent me from making this trip.

    I am so very glad that this gathering is a success, hope the next one will come soon. Wish I am there to be able to get some cultures, the frys (from the eggs) Gan gave me is have grown to a size that I no longer know what to feed them. Tubifex worms seems to be too big for them, dry flakes just don't seems to have enough nutrition for them... now at a loss.

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    Though I am not really into killies per se but I really enjoyed myself and had an enriching experience with some killie breeders at the gathering.
    I was really impressed with the student from RI who showed a lot of interest in the fish he acquired at the gathering - He knew his stuff.
    Many thanks to the people behind the scene for taking the trouble to organise this gathering even though it was a bit 'organised chaos'
    Cheers
    Dennis

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    I would said that the gathering is a sucessfully one. However, I did noticed that Sia Meng was busying catching frys and Au was recording the sale. In this gathering, I were actually hoping sucessful breeder to share their precious experience with other and also a self introduction for all forum member.

    I suggested that on the next gathering, fry will be sell maybe in a container of 8 or 10 so that it will be easier and faster to sell it to the buyer.

    Finally, I did noticed a man bought quite a number of frys and fishes but not even know how to hatch the brine shrimp. I am wondering how is his fishes now. Sorry no offend, just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohsan
    I would said that the gathering is a sucessfully one. However, I did noticed that Sia Meng was busying catching frys and Au was recording the sale.
    Pohsan, yeah... everyone was doing their part to ensure a smooth flow of events. Hope you didn't miss out the guy who was all over the place with his toy camera :wink:

    In this gathering, I were actually hoping sucessful breeder to share their precious experience with other and also a self introduction for all forum member.
    Hopefully, we can cover that next.

    I suggested that on the next gathering, fry will be sell maybe in a container of 8 or 10 so that it will be easier and faster to sell it to the buyer.
    My hindsight is 20/20 but it's my foresight that's blurry. Yes, that pre-packaging idea have been brought up and noted (heck! how could I have missed Sia Meng's frown! )

    Kwek Leong was expecting students to turn up and where they couldn't allocate the budget for young adult fishes, at least there are affordable eggs and frys.

    Finally, I did noticed a man bought quite a number of frys and fishes but not even know how to hatch the brine shrimp. I am wondering how is his fishes now. Sorry no offend, just curious.
    Not sure if we are talking about the same person who paid very close attention to me on the microworm culture.

    Then again, besides BBS, there's always daphnia, infusoria and other small live foods.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Re: Comments on our Gathering – 29 Nov 2003

    Quote Originally Posted by gweesm1
    Moderators, feel free to remove, delete, or edit if you find any part of the post inappropriate.
    Regards,
    Sia Meng,

    I won't remove your post but I would strongly suggest you tone it down. To suggest that it was unethical for the person to want to buy all 5 pairs of the Fp gardneri is being too judgemental.

    Before the gathering, we did not make any rules that people with commercial interests are not allowed to buy all the fish so if there's anybody to be blamed for what happened during the gathering, it would be the organisers (I will be the first person in line ).

    In any case, you don't have to feel sorry for the guys who didn't go home with the Fp gardneri pairs. For your information, they bought the juveniles and there were more than enough to go around. About 5 juveniles were left unsold and they are swimming happily in my tank now. You may like to know too that inspite of some persuasion on my part, they refused to buy more. One juvenile was being sold at $1.50 compared to the pair which was going at $8 each. I'm actually quite surprised and puzzled that the other 3 who expressed interest in the adult pairs were not willing to buy more of the juveniles. At $16 a pair, they would have bought 10 juveniles but the person who bought the most juveniles took only 8.

    It's always best to look after the interests of everyone, whether they are students with shoe-string budgets or commercial breeders with unlimited budgets. It's foolish to accuse others of monopolosing the market when it's a free market in the first place. In any case, the line dividing someone who's a commercial breeder and a hobbyist can be pretty thin sometimes. Some people for instance, would see you as a commercial breeder for the simple fact that you have so many species of killies and are actively buying, selling and trading them with breeders from other nations. I've always believe that in order for this forum to do well, we should work hand-in-hand with the local fish shops and people with commercial interests. I'm not suggesting we that go commercial but without the fish shops, the hobby would die for all of us.

    The regional manager of Eheim Singapore was at the gathering and he gave me a bag of pens to distribute for free to everyone. I wouldn't turn down such a good offer although obviously the gift came with commercial interests. You can say Eheim was looking for some publicity but if it doesn't do any harm to anyone, why should we turn down an offer that benefits everyone?

    I would go as far as to say that if a commercial breeder had turned up and bought all the fish during the gathering, it would have been a good thing. For one thing, it would show that someone values the fish highly. Far too many times, I've seen hobbyists turn down fish which were going at low low prices. Many trays of fry and eggs were unsold. I took home 40 chocolate australe eyed-up eggs and a tray of about 50 gold australe fry. A year and a half ago, I would have paid an arm and a leg for such fry. To think that they were going at such low prices and still remained unsold is an indication that many people here don't understand how valuable and how difficult sometimes it is to obtain the fish. Frankly, I think we are spoiling the newbies. We are making things too easy for them.

    It would obviously be good if more time had been apportioned for people to chit-chat, exchange information and get to know one another better. But this is our first gathering and there are bound to be mistakes. I believe we all learnt something, first and foremost of which, is that we need a bigger place for future gatherings. We also need a better display rack and spread the fish around the shop so that people don't have to crowd around a small viewing place. Fry should always be prepacked because it can be hell catching them from a tray.

    All in all, I would say it was a huge success. Many thanks to all those who turned up and showed their support. We will do this again one day but it won't be so soon.

    Loh K L

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    Dear all...

    The gathering was great in a sense especially since it was organized for the first time, I managed to get to know Ronnie, Francis and some other guy (really sorry forgot your name ha...) and got to learn a lot from them, from apistos to plants to killies... great learning from the experienced and old birds...

    "However", too bad the other "experts" were busy attending to sales and stuff, I was actually hoping that you guys will be sharing your experiences through a "public" talk upstairs ha... it would have been better for some others who were ermmm more "shy", I had came alone, and if I didn't overhear Francis and friend talked about pencilfishes, I wouldn't have been able to make friends with them : )

    but it has been real good, the auction was at eye opener ha...

    DesmonD

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    Emm… I see where you are coming from, but do not agreed completely to what was mentioned.

    In any case, you don't have to feel sorry for the guys who didn't go home with the Fp gardneri pairs. For your information, they bought the juveniles and there were more than enough to go around.
    In any killifish gatherings, fish are preferred over fry and eggs as it is easier to tell if they are healthy as compared to fry and eggs.

    In fact I knew they bought the fry as I encouraged them to if any of the fish were grabbed up before they do. I was the one packing fry, remember?? However a few of them told me they prefer adult fish over fry, reasons being:-
    Sex ratio unknown
    How well does fry travel??
    Are the fry healthy??
    Will I get a better male from this lot??
    These are actual question asked by the buyers.
    But of course they were a few who preferred the fry, as they were cheaper.

    It's always best to look after the interests of everyone, whether they are students with shoe-string budgets or commercial breeders with unlimited budgets.
    I do agree with this, but who’s interest should we be looking at for a gathering like this? I am coming from the direction of a hobbyist, thus I am interested in getting the fish distributed to many people during the gathering.
    Some people for instance, would see you as a commercial breeder for the simple fact that you have so many species of killies and are actively buying, selling and trading them with breeders from other nations.
    Frankly, I do not mind if people see me as a commercial breeder even though I am not. The reason being; I contribute in term of spreading the hobby, and most importantly being open on breeding techniques and imparting knowledge. For past few months a number people came to my house just to see what I do to breed killifish and I will usually encourage them to start with killifish only when they are ready. BTW most of them did not buy as they felt that they are not ready. But I am glad to see one of them here took my advise on reading up before committing on killifish. I learnt from the school of hard knocks, thus I hate to see hobbyists making the same silly mistake I made.

    I've always believed that in order for this forum to do well, we should work hand-in-hand with the local fish shops and people with commercial interests.
    You can say Eheim was looking for some publicity but if it doesn't do any harm to anyone, why should we turn down an offer that benefits everyone?
    Of course I always believe in working hand in hand with LFS. But what good will it do if one people grab all fish during a hobbyist gathering?

    Loh I think it is common to have different opinions, but our goal here is to get the hobby popularise. Believe me, if you felt that what I said was judgemental, then a number of people who knew about this incident are equally as judgemental. If everyone is worried about voicing out, then I will have to be the “bad” guy.

    If any part of the post sounds or is offensive, I apologise. Sorry my friend. (I really mean it) Frankly, I loose sleep over this post.

    regards
    Gwee Sia Meng
    AKA 08742
    SAA 163
    Fish List

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweesm1
    Loh I think it is common to have different opinions, but our goal here is to get the hobby popularise. Believe me, if you felt that what I said was judgemental, then a number of people who knew about this incident are equally as judgemental. If everyone is worried about voicing out, then I will have to be the “bad” guy.
    Sia Meng,
    When one is able to "agree-to-disagree" without kicking up a storm and resorting to name calling, that's a sign of maturity in thoughts and IMHO, is healthy and lacking in many forums.

    When everyone is thinking the same, we're not doing much thinking!

    What that is 'judgemental', is based on experience learnt in our daily transactions with people and is as subjective, as the perceived value of the fishes we keep.

    If any part of the post sounds or is offensive, I apologise. Sorry my friend. (I really mean it) Frankly, I loose sleep over this post.
    Can't sleep? Go change some water... the fishes will thank you for it :wink:
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweesm1
    However a few of them told me they prefer adult fish over fry, reasons being:-
    Sex ratio unknown
    How well does fry travel??
    Are the fry healthy??
    Will I get a better male from this lot??
    These are actual question asked by the buyers.
    But of course they were a few who preferred the fry, as they were cheaper.
    For those of us who started off with eggs, the questions (quoted above) raised by the guys sound really frivolous. As I have said a couple of times, we are spoiling them.

    Sia Meng, I've got nothing against people having different opinions but your initial post sounded harsh, especially when you put certain phrases in bold lettering. I didn't want to mention this earlier but for his sake, I think I better.

    The guy who supposedly has commercial interests is Darren Lum. He wrote me one week before the gathering. In his email, he told me he is planning on buying many of the killies on sale and he was concerned that if he does that, others may see it as being unfriendly. Darren has plans to open a fish shop specialising in killies and he already has a breeding room set up in an industrial park. Darren also said in his email that he loves the fish very much and that it is his dream to spread the love of the fish to many others.

    I know Darren isn't very active in this forum, thereby giving the impression that he's not very helpful. But I can assure you that he's just as helpful as anyone here. His problem is that he just doesn't have enough time. Besides taking care of his killies, Darren has a full-time job. He spends all his free time (after working hours) in his breeding room which does not have a computer. So I really won't hold anything against him just because he's less active here than others.

    Privately, I have told many people that in order for a really active killifish scene to take place here, we need someone like Darren Lum. The few fish shops that currently sells killies cannot do much because the fish shop owners themselves know too little about the fish.

    If you ask me, I think Darren is taking a big risk. Chances of him realising his dream are very slim because the market for killies is just too small. But I would go as far as I can to help someone like Darren. Many of us who claim to love the fish very much wouldn't even dare think about doing what Darren is attempting. He's going to quit a stable well-paid job and a lot of money to do this. He's going to risk a lot and I wish him all the best.

    Sia Meng, in your initial post, you wrote that "In the future, the seller reverses the rights to sell, and not to sell."

    Although you have the right to do that, I have to tell you that I'm disappointed you choose to say something like that without discussing with me first. Every seller has the right to change his mind and not sell his fish but I can assure you that the buyer would see this as being very unfriendly. If word gets around that during our gatherings, fish that are put on sale may not be sold if the seller doesn't like the buyer's attitude, then you can be sure no one will turn up in future gatherings.

    Loh K L

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    The guy who supposedly has commercial interests is Darren Lum. He wrote me one week before the gathering. In his email, he told me he is planning on buying many of the killies on sale and he was concerned that if he does that, others may see it as being unfriendly. Darren has plans to open a fish shop specialising in killies and he already has a breeding room set up in an industrial park. Darren also said in his email that he loves the fish very much and that it is his dream to spread the love of the fish to many others.
    Kwek Leong, let's not get too worked up over this as I can see that although each is differently inclined, we ALL have the SAME goals!

    It's comical in a sense, that all this could have been avoided and it's mostly due to failure in communication.

    Had you diverge the necessary details and had Darren attended the pre-gathering meet, this wouldn't have happened but on the contrary, I believe that Darren would garner even more support towards his endeavours.

    Silence isn't always 'golden'... think about it.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWill
    Had you diverge the necessary details and had Darren attended the pre-gathering meet, this wouldn't have happened but on the contrary, I believe that Darren would garner even more support towards his endeavours.
    Ronnie,

    The pre-gathering meet was only for people who were selling many fish so since Darren wasn't selling any, it didn't occur to me then that I should ask him to come along.

    You're probably right to say that "silence isn't always golden". But I didn't want to reveal what Darren is doing earlier because it was told to me in private.

    In any case, I would appeal to everyone here to help Darren Lum. If there's anyone who's worthy of help here, it's him. Like I've said, he's risking a lot and all of us here should try to help him succeed.

    I gave Darren all my Aphy. australes and many of my other fish. Unlike hobbyists, Darren needs more than just one pair because he has to build up a big pool of killies before he can open a fish shop.

    Loh K L

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    This is supposed to be read in soft and slow tone.

    Although you have the right to do that, I have to tell you that I'm disappointed you choose to say something like that without discussing with me first. Every seller has the right to change his mind and not sell his fish but I can assure you that the buyer would see this as being very unfriendly. If word gets around that during our gatherings, fish that are put on sale may not be sold if the seller doesn't like the buyer's attitude, then you can be sure no one will turn up in future gatherings.
    Loh, I agreed with you but have you put yourself in the shoe of the other buyers? By not selling my fish to a buyer who has the intention to grab all will appear that I am unfriendly to only one buyer, but I have made other buyers happy. If I have allowed the buyer to grab all, this will appear that the buyer is unfriendly to all other buyers or worst, they thought that the buyer and seller have hidden agenda.

    Rest assured that I am not trying to bring Darren down. By starting this post, I was hoping that you will see thing in a different perspective, which you and Darren might have missed. I am not speaking only for myself, believe me quite a number of people here is feeling what I feeling, and you can’t deny the fact what was done was sore to a number of people. So are we going to ignore them?

    Loh, I know you are very disappointed with me, and my presence might seem unfriendly to you and Darren. I know what I post might have hurt our friendship. I guess I will have to leave the site for the good of everyone. I will still continue my goal as an individual or perhaps with the help from some friends.

    My days in killies.com has been a wonderful and I am always grateful to you.

    I shall end my post here regardless what the reply will be….

    Regards,
    Gwee Sia Meng
    AKA 08742
    SAA 163
    Fish List

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweesm1
    I am not speaking only for myself, believe me quite a number of people here is feeling what I feeling, and you can’t deny the fact what was done was sore to a number of people. So are we going to ignore them?
    All the more, the fact that you hinted in your earlier post and said so again now, that there are many others who think like you, I have to try and put things right.

    Darren was willing to go through an auction when the number of Fp gardneri's on sale were not enough to go around. The other buyers, except for one, did not even bother to turn up for the auction when I wanted to conduct it. Nothing is fairer than to put the fish through an auction when there are too many buyers, for the simple reason an auction would find it's true market value. The way I see it, Darren and the young boy who went upstairs for the auction were the 2 persons who value the fish most so if you ask me, they deserve to own the fish.

    Just before I started the auction, I asked the young boy how many pairs he wanted and he said "one pair". I then asked Darren if he's willing to take only 4 out of the 5 pairs available and he magnanimously said "yes". So there was no need for an auction and they both went home happy.

    My days in killies.com has been a wonderful and I am always grateful to you.
    I hope you will reconsider your decision. I can't stop anyone from joining or leaving this forum on their own free will but if it makes you feel better, I will apologise for sounding harsh in my reply to your post. People will always have different opinions on different matters and you should not leave just because I disagree with you. You have been my close friend ever since the day you first came to my house to see my killies and I would hate to see you leave this forum. But I will always keep the interests of this forum above anyone else's so even if you are my best friend, I will publicly disagree with you if I think what you said is wrong.

    To Ronnie, who hinted in another topic that Darren should bring in his own eggs, let me just say he's been trying to do that and have done so several times already.

    Loh K L

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    Unlike hobbyists, Darren needs more than just one pair because he has to build up a big pool of killies before he can open a fish shop.
    BINGO! I can't agree with you better and just so I'm not missing the forest while looking at the trees, where is this big pool of killies suppose to come from? Indonesia, Malaysia or Taiwan?

    Pairs? Yeah right... let's turn to the LFS and wring their necks for females!

    If I had to put it any more blunt, a few of us here have tasted what 'pedigree' looks like (I know I have) and very unlikely to revert back to 'mongrels'. There are lovable mutts, but a pedigree is still a pedigree.

    Like it or not, Kwek Leong, we have started a trend, an awareness, and unknow imports by LFS OR corrupted codes, will never be looked at with the same light again or warmly received.

    The way I see it, the most reliable source for Darren is still via serious hobbyist. The motto of "for hobbyists, by hobbyists" appeal to me immensely.

    As is, it's a very niche market for killies and Darren really cannot afford not to stay in touch with the 'flow'. Not having a 'puter in the breeding room is, at best, pretty lame reasoning (my opinion only and nothing personal intended).

    At a broader level, AKA has gone online with their F&EL and their forum. The validity of being IT illiterate no longer stands nor should it hinder the progression of reaching out... it's time to shape out or ship out.

    I am neutral at this point, just as my appointment as moderator demands so, and for the best interest of the forum, I shall be locking the thread and respectfully request that it remains so.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

  19. #19
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    Dear all,

    Just as we rewet our nothobranchius eggs, to have a second chance of getting more fry, I'm unlocking this thread to allow insights as to what may have transpired and it is considered fair to allow the other party to voice up too.

    We are passionate about our killies, but let's maintain a reign on our emotions.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWill
    I'm unlocking this thread to allow insights as to what may have transpired and it is considered fair to allow the other party to voice up too.
    Thanks for unlocking the thread, Ronnie. I believe we shouldn't sweep things under the carpet. So it would be better to let this thread run its course and let everyone has his or her say.

    I may have sounded harsh or emotional in some of my posts but there was never any intention on my part to run down anyone. I do believe in a democratic society where everyone is given the right to voice his opinions. But a truly democratic society would also be one where everyone has to live with the fact that there may be many others who disagree with you.

    Basically, the gist of Sia Meng's first post was that he feels we should accord some form of priority to hobbyists. In other words, he wants us to give special preference to people who are hobbyists over those people with commercial interests.

    I disagree because I feel that everyone should be treated equally.

    If you have anything to say about this, we would love to hear from you.

    Loh K L

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