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Thread: Species Maintenance

  1. #1
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    Species Maintenance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie
    Kwek Leong,

    Two years ago, when I started focusing my attention and resources on non-annuals, there were many others in this forum who were maintaining annuals.

    I now see many who've joined the "non-annual camp", to which there's little we can do unless we can organise a 'conservation team' amongst ourselves, much like the AKA's "Core Groups".

    Any 'core member' who's giving up the species must hand it over to someone else. (can AKA members in the forum enlighten me as to how this works??)

    What I'm about to suggest will mean some work for others!

    Let's say we assign 2 members, or more, to maintaining an annual species, I think we should be able to cover at least 10 species. That ought to relieve the load somewhat.

    For myself, I'm maintaining Simp constanciae, with Rivulus xiphidius 'PK 15' and Terranatos dolichopterus 'V96/7' further down the road.

    As an aside, there was a tankful of Nothobranchius rachovii Beira 98 at our last gathering that didn't receive much interest. If newbies can give this beautiful fish a pass-over, what chances are there of them keeping less-attractive Nothos or Simps?

    I would be more concerned about newbies treating killies as a passing fad, a fashion, if you will (since LouHan is no longer the 'in thing').

    Comments anyone?
    I've started a new thread where hopefully it will generate enough discussion on species maintenance within the Singapore scene. I've quoted Ronnie's response to KL's concern of experienced breeders moving to keeping non-annuals.

    I guess why more people are inclined to keep non-annuals are that most of them can be water incubated and the incubation period is shorter - no diapause period needed. I'm myself is inclined to go into this direction as it means no hassle of getting peat, drying them, wetting them etc etc.

    The local members here could also keep 1 or 2 annual species together with the annuals they are maintaining. I myself is still keen on the RAC and am looking into another annual to maintain, plus other non-annuals which interest me. Maybe what we could do is to make a list of the species we are maintaining. I'm not sure whether it is still premature but the 'hardcore addicts' should sit down and make the SG killi-scene more structured - as per Ronnie's suggestion of following AKA species maintenance programme.

    Like what Ronnie said, hopefully this is not a passing fad for some fish enthusiast.

    Cheers
    Zulkifli

  2. #2
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    Re: Species Maintenance

    Quote Originally Posted by zmzfam
    The local members here could also keep 1 or 2 annual species together with the annuals they are maintaining. I myself is still keen on the RAC and am looking into another annual to maintain, plus other non-annuals which interest me. Maybe what we could do is to make a list of the species we are maintaining. I'm not sure whether it is still premature but the 'hardcore addicts' should sit down and make the SG killi-scene more structured - as per Ronnie's suggestion of following AKA species maintenance programme.

    Like what Ronnie said, hopefully this is not a passing fad for some fish enthusiast.
    Zul, everything has a thrend, it comes and then it fades.

    I've been giving some thoughts to the issue and lost abit of sleep (no thanks to Kwek Leong! :wink: ) but there's is an on-going discussion on this at KillieTalk, that reflect similar concerns.

    On the issue of Species Maintenance, AKA's Killietalk Email List
    http://www.aka.org/pages/killietalk.html

    Check out responses from;
    Gary Bartell's response to the "Where have all the killies gone?" thread.

    Matt Kaufman's nervy comments: Maintaining species, the AKA collecting proposal, new members, etc.

    David Koran, a reprise on the "Where have all the killies gone?" thread.
    http://fins.actwin.com/killietalk/mo.../msg00124.html

    Interesting stuff!
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Zulkifli,

    The greatest problem we are facing is that we just don't have enough serious killifish breeders in Singapore. There's only a handful of us and people like Ronnie, Au and Sia Meng already keep so many species it would be unfair or unreasonable even to ask them to maintain more. These 3 are also the ones who regularly bring in new species. That alone requires effort and a lot of money so I'm loathed to ask them to do more.

    Creating a database of species is something that has been suggested more than once here. Although I'm not against it, I have to say it wouldn't help very much. Someone would have to manage the database and any database would be useful only if it's regularly updated. Chances are members will either forget to inform the database manager of changes or they couldn't care less. Ronnie tried very hard to get an update on the fish we bought as eggs from the mass egg-buying exercise but the response to his request was very poor.

    When I first started, I had many species of annuals, among them were:

    Nothobranchius rachovii Beira 98
    Nothobranchius guentheri Zanzibar
    Nothobranchius albimarginatus kiparanganda TAN 97/4
    Nothobranchius kafuensis Kayuni State Farm
    Nothobranchius korthausae (Yellow)
    Simpsonichthys magnificus
    Simpsonichthys constanciae Bera Sao Jao
    Nematolebias whitei
    Austrolebias nigripinnis de Carmelo
    Rivulus cryptocallus


    Now, the only species on that list which are still around are the Notho guentheri which I'm keeping, the Simp magnificus which Au and Sia Meng are maintaining, the Simp constanciae which Ronnie is spreading around and the Notho rachovii which are being kept by many of us. So out of my list of 10, 6 species are no longer available in Singapore. In a way, I feel it was my fault. I should have given away some of the fish to other hobbyists but when I started doing this, it was with a commercial aim so I was reluctant to give the fish away even when no one was interested in buying them. I was the only one with these species then so when they died in my tanks, the species became "lost".

    I would say the best way to keep many species going is to round up more killie-nuts. The more killifish breeders there are in Singapore, the more species will be maintained.

    Loh K L

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    Creating a database of species is something that has been suggested more than once here. Although I'm not against it, I have to say it wouldn't help very much. Someone would have to manage the database and any database would be useful only if it's regularly updated.
    Kwek Leong, I know you tire from my database request :wink: but during one of my in-person conversation with Jian Yang, regarding this issue, one of the things that came up was, members not submitting in the details.

    In that discussion, I don't recall if Jian Yang volunteered to set up and maintain the database but let's face it, it's an unthankful task. (yooo hooo... Jian Yang, you here? I need a memory jolt ) He also brought to my attention of something similar done by the New Zealand Killifish Association which has the status of the species, but unfortunately, doesn't state who/which member or group maintaining it.

    Can I humbly request our overseas friends to shed some light on this issue, and how the situation is like from where you're based. (Come on folks, I'd really appreciate this. TIA for your time)

    Ronnie tried very hard to get an update on the fish we bought as eggs from the mass egg-buying exercise but the response to his request was very poor.
    Many of those fishes were on my wishlist, so it's worth the effort for me to know the status. I was looking forward to swapping my hopeful spawns for those which I do not maintain and was, in a way, prepared to adopt or buy from those who no longer have the time, resources or interest to maintain them. (Hey! my corridor still has plenty of space!! )

    BTW, I'm still looking forward to those updates (Hint hint to those who know who you are! :wink: ).

    Now, the only species on that list which are still around are the Notho guentheri which I'm keeping, the Simp magnificus which Au and Sia Meng are maintaining, the Simp constanciae which Ronnie is spreading around and the Notho rachovii which are being kept by many of us. So out of my list of 10, 6 species are no longer available in Singapore.
    We aren't the only killiekeepers losing species in the hobby. Dr Nevin had just posted a hypothesis on where the killies went. I assure you it's a worthwhile read.

    For those who wishes to follow any article, by Thread Index, try this.

    In a way, I feel it was my fault. I should have given away some of the fish to other hobbyists but when I started doing this, it was with a commercial aim...
    This forum, your site, your time, your expenses and enthusiasm, has done more for local killifish hobbyists than anyone else I know.

    We have our reasons for doing what we do, and your goal isn't out of line... so there's no reason for feeling at fault.

    I would say the best way to keep many species going is to round up more killie-nuts. The more killifish breeders there are in Singapore, the more species will be maintained.
    Exactly what was said on KillieTalk too! New members=more tanks! I find it so co-incidental that our recent concerns are also being discussed there but urm... just how do you propose we 'round the nuts up'?? I've been distributing a good number of fishes and made sure these folks know about the forum.

    Guess it's also a good time for them to get off their butts and raise their hands... :wink:
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    That alone requires effort and a lot of money so I'm loathed to ask them to do more.
    Yes, that is true. I've seen some of the postings at aquabid.com and also the amount paid when we ordered the eggs last time.
    Chances are members will either forget to inform the database manager of changes or they couldn't care less. Ronnie tried very hard to get an update on the fish we bought as eggs from the mass egg-buying exercise but the response to his request was very poor.
    I have to plead guilty on that one.
    the best way to keep many species going is to round up more killie-nuts. The more killifish breeders there are in Singapore, the more species will be maintained.
    I guess when I said making the SG killie-scene more structured would also include how to rope in members, introduce more people to killies and at the same time teach the basics of husbandry and breeding.

    i remembered the first time I had rachovii frys, i managed to get 100+ frys but through too much neglect lost a lot of frys. I have learnt a lot since then but through an unfortunate incident during the Hari Raya festivities, lost again a lot of frys - including the two species I ordered through the mass eggs ordering. This does not mean I'm going to give up but to learn from mistakes and try again.
    Zulkifli

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmzfam
    This does not mean I'm going to give up but to learn from mistakes and try again.
    Zul, I like that attitude... another Killie hardcore in the making

    now about those frys... what's the status? (please update here.) :wink:
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWil
    In that discussion, I don't recall if Jian Yang volunteered to set up and maintain the database but let's face it, it's an unthankful task. (yooo hooo... Jian Yang, you here? I need a memory jolt ) He also brought to my attention of something similar done by the New Zealand Killifish Association which has the status of the species, but unfortunately, doesn't state who/which member or group maintaining it.
    I do not mind setting up and maintaining the database also - MS Access comes to mind - and I can come up with some programming also. But in this case, the database has to be off-line. Of course, a simple one can be just a static web page and updated by the DB admin as and when required. This can also be discussed further.

    Perhaps Ronnie should also keep a registry as to who comes to his place to collect killies.. ...

    The fact is also that somebody interested in keeping killies should be also interested in breeding them....
    Zulkifli

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmzfam
    The fact is also that somebody interested in keeping killies should be also interested in breeding them....
    I too thought that was true when I started out breeding killies but my experiences with fellow-hobbyists in the last year or so contradicts this. The reality in Singapore is that many of our younger hobbyists are only interested in getting the beautiful species and even then, very few of them want to breed the fish.

    Breeding killies and maintaining species requires effort and patience. Young people are restless and very few have the discipline to do things like hatch brine shrimps everyday or maintain live food cultures. It could be the younger set have more other interests and are distracted easily. Whatever the reasons, generally, the serious hobbyists here are the older guys.

    We need more killi-nuts but most of all, we need more serious killi-nuts. One way to transform the "not so serious killifish hobbyists" into "serious ones" would be to enhance the value of the fish. The more valuable the fish are, the more people would want to keep and breed them. Many of us, in our eagerness to spread the hobby, either give or sell the fish cheaply to newcomers. That, in my opinion, can have an adverse effect on the hobby, in that, fish obtained easily or cheaply would not be treasured.

    If you have rare species, I would advise that you don't give or sell them away cheaply to newcomers. You won't be doing yourself or anyone any favours if you do that. Sell them at the prices that you have to pay to obtain them. Or better still, sell them at a profit. Frankly, it's only fair.

    You may think that high prices will deter people from coming into the hobby but looking at how it was with the LuoHans, the reverse would be true. LuoHans, fish that are very easy to propagate were selling for astronomical prices yet there were many who were willing to pay to own them.

    To round up more killie-nuts, our best bet lies with Darren Lum. If he goes ahead with his plans to open a fish shop that specialises in killifish, chances are good that there will be many killifish hobbyists soon. There's a shop along Upper Serangoon Road that specialises in Cichlids and I know for a fact that they are doing quite good business. If a Cichlid shop can do well, I think a killifish shop should too.

    Our forum may seem like a place that can attract many hobbyists but take it from me, nothing beats a fish shop. A fish shop, in a day, can have more walk-in customers than hobbyists surfing into our forum in a month.
    We would all be helping to spread the hobby by supporting Darren in his business venture. If you have excess fish, sell them to Darren. If you don't have anything to sell, give him your moral support. Darren doesn't say much on this forum but that's because he's a busy man. In terms of love for the killifish hobby, I think he ranks the highest amongst us all.

    Loh K L

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    Hello all,

    Its been one heck of a busy January for me. Pretty much explains why I've not been posting regularly of late. Anyway, in short, here's my response.

    Species/Populations Database

    - Ronnie, I did tell you that I could do up a simple database using MS Excel spreadsheets containing information from each of the members maintain any and every species. It's pretty simple actually.

    - If everyone could e-mail me or PM me in private their personal fishlists, with status of the species included, I could do up a simple generalized fishlist and post it up on the web.

    - Details such as Species Name + Location/Population Code(if applicable), whether the fish are in the fry/subadult/adult stage or still in dormant egg form would be appreciated.

    - Status of fish within our borders will be stated in the compiled fishlist. The eventual list will not contain the names of the breeders to prevent unwanted/unnecessary attention. By doing so we are protecting the privacy of the breeders and also maintaining the price of each fish, if they are to be sold.

    - The breeders details will only be known to the DB manager, list moderators, maintenance group leaders/members and to the breeders themselves. I will post up a link for interested people to contact us if they intend to obtain any species as stated on the list. Prices of the fish however, will not be stated on the fishlist.

    - Liaison between the breeders/potential buyers will only take place once the breeder has ascertained that he/she has enough eggs/fish to sell in the first place.

    Ok, as for other issues,

    Species Maintenance Groups

    This is a pretty good idea and I think I can be part of the constanciae
    maintenance group. Apart from Ronnie and me, Gan also has a pretty good fry count.

    As for other fish, I have decided in favour of keeping annuals myself. Currently maintaining 3 annuals:

    - Simpsonichthys fulminantis Guanambi BHS 95/12 (2 adults and a single fry)
    - Simpsonichthys constanciae Barra de Sao Joao (2 adults and 18 fry)
    - Simpsonichthys magnificus Itacarambi B7 (trio of subadults)

    Once the MAG get big enough I'll start breeding them. About egg-buying, I am planning to get some new species pretty soon. I am trying to obtain eggs of Maratecoara lacortei and perhaps Simpsonichthys zonatus. Maybe at a later stage I'll return to maintain nothos. After June, when my service with the Army ends, I'll go full steam into getting more species. :wink: Hopefully by then I'd have found a job to finance my egg buying spree! :P

    Last but not least, KL, I am guilty of having extirpated the Notho. kafuensis from our shores through my own negligence. That said, I will re-introduce the kafuensis or replace it with another notho at a later stage when my egg-buying spree goes full blast.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWill
    Dr Nevin had just posted a hypothesis on where the killies went.
    If his hypothesis is true, perhaps that's the reason nobody was looking at the rachovii at the last gathering.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormhawk
    The eventual list will not contain the names of the breeders to prevent unwanted/unnecessary attention. By doing so we are protecting the privacy of the breeders and also maintaining the price of each fish, if they are to be sold.
    It is good to protect the privacy of the breeders and maintaining a standard price for the fish....but then again this could become another debate on who to sell the fish to who.

    Anyway, we could start by giving Jianyang our fish-list so that he could get the database started. Jianyang, why don't you create a downloadable Excel template with the kind of information that you want. This way, members here could just fill up the Excel sheet, mail it to you and you ca just copy and paste the info into your master sheet. This way, information passed to you will be in a standard format.
    Zulkifli

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    Here is a Canadian perspective for you. I have kept freshwater fish for many years but had never seen or heard of killiefish around here. I have a good book that I saw many pictures like the one in the upper left corner of this forum. Never have I seen a killie in a fish store around here however.

    I just recently found a show guppy breeder that had a few pairs of Aph. Australe Orange so I bought one. I have begun to collect eggs from their spawning mop and am looking forward to raising the young.

    Shortly after that I found the Canadian Killiefish Association. Here is their buy & sell page, so you can get an idea of what fish are available to me here. http://www.cka.org/buy&sell.htm

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    Hello All,

    As for Zul's request for a downloadable format, I can't get it up on a site. Anyway, do PM me with your email so that I can send you a sample of the species list.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
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    Hello everyone,

    Sorry for digging up this old thread but I believe its time I started rekindling interest in this. I have tired of waiting for people to pass me their fish lists so I've been gathering and collating information from individual fishlists, auction at the 1st gathering, previous egg orders and commercial imports into Singapore via FnF farm and such.

    I hope that I can get more information from everyone so I can come up with a census for 2004. Regardless of whether the species is lost or still present within our shores, I'd appreciate any new info, especially from those that have been ordering eggs on a personal basis or winning bids on Aquabid on their own.

    Any news including status of species, whether there's any fry that came out of the eggs or whether the resultant fry have reached adulthood.. anything will do. Even orders currently in transit will also be included.
    A general census of species would show us as to how many species we did have and still have at present.

    Here's a summary of the information that I have collated so far.
    Information correct as of 27 May 2004

    Total Species: 132 (Populations of the same species considered as separate "species")
    Extinct Species: 21 (This refers to the number of species 'lost' or extinct within Singapore)
    In Transit: 4 (My own orders so far and still waiting to receive. Inclusive in Total Species count.)

    I will appreciate any new information in any form whatsoever, species and population/collection codes included if possible. By the way, some of the species in the recent mass egg orders came with collection codes.

    For example : [OCC] Callopanchax occidentale Mangata GM 97/3

    Both the Nguti and Bakebe mirabile are coded HAH-98 and the Tinto comes with the code CI-03. Email me if you're not sure.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormhawk
    I have tired of waiting for people ....
    I was wondering myself whether anybody had updated you.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormhawk
    I hope that I can get more information from everyone so I can come up with a census for 2004.
    This is a noble cause on Jianyang's part. I hope that everyone will support his effort in creating a list of species in SG. This, I believe, will prevent the duplication of bringing in eggs of the same species. As an e.g. Ronnie and myself brought in eggs of the same species individually - at a different date. If I had checked with Ronnie, I could have brought in another species. I just can't checked with Ronnie alone as there are a number of killifish enthusiast in SG. With this database, one look and you can tell whether the species is available in SG or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormhawk
    Total Species: 132 (Populations of the same species considered as separate "species")
    I didn't know we had so many species in SG!

    Quote Originally Posted by stormhawk
    By the way, some of the species in the recent mass egg orders came with collection codes.
    Yes, I should have seen from David's website. No wonder you call yourself hawk - very SHARP eyes!

    It is good that you mentioned in here - the rest of the guys who got the eggs on the recent mass order, please also check with David's website - www.thekillifishsource.com

    I think I will amend this thread to include in the collection code also.
    Zulkifli

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    Refer to the text in blue for codes/edits.

    Pohsan
    Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' HAH 98
    Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto' CI-03 F0

    Gan(turaco)
    Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Nguti' HAH 98

    Ronnie Lee
    Chromaphyosemion poliaki 'Ekona' CI-01 F1
    Chromaphyosemion splendopleure 'Bamukong Ombe River Sys.' 1999

    Zulkifli
    Aphyosemion gabunense marginatum 'Bifoun' (According to Tim Addis's site for West African Killies)
    Callopanchax occidentale 'Mangata' GM 97/3

    Replacement Eggs

    Rashid
    Aphyosemion sp.aff. primigenium GBN 88-10

    Please take note of the changes and relabel your bags/containers as such to maintain these codes.
    Zul, there's 133 Species now with 22 Extinct. Kwek Leong, did your Rivulus cryptocallus come with a location/collection code?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormhawk
    Kwek Leong, did your Rivulus cryptocallus come with a location/collection code?
    I'm afraid they didn't, Jianyang. The fish came as eggs from a friend in Brazil who's not a Killifish enthusiast. He got the eggs from a breeder there.

    Loh K L

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    Kwek Leong,

    In that case its okay, I'll just list them as they are. Thanks for the info though. :wink:

    David aka killifishdavid,

    Could you go through the list of codes I appended to the species (from what I read and took from your online fishlist) and re-confirm if the codes are correct? Please advise if anything is incorrect or not in order.
    Thanks.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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