Breathable bags

[blinkytom]

Hi everyone,

A friend has given me some breathable bags which he's asked me to test in order to contribute to an article he's writing. I'd like to send some fish to you in Singapore but I have a couple of things which concern me.

1. Which Royal Mail service do I use? Airmail is the fastest but they don't take parcels, only packets and letters.

RM restrictions on packet and letter size -
Minimum = One surface at least 90mm x 140mm
Maximum = Length, width and depth combined - 900mm
Greatest single dimension - 600mm. 2kg in weight.

My idea to get round this is to put the bags in to a small, thin box and to put that inside a bubble envelope, then sending it as a packet. Do you think this would work?

2. What do I put on the customs form? You're not technically permitted to send live fish through Royal Mail but you are allowed to send fish fry. If I put 'Tropical fish fry for aquariums' or something similar do you think they would have any issues with this?

I would really appreciate your opinions on this.

[shortman]

Hi Tom,

1. Use a old music a old CD casing then insert in the bubble envelope should work. I think Mr Loh did it this way.

2. I believe put "Fry for Aquarium Research Purpose" should be ok.

Regards

[RonWill]

Airmail is the fastest but they don't take parcels, only packets and letters.

RM restrictions on packet and letter size -
Minimum = One surface at least 90mm x 140mm
Maximum = Length, width and depth combined - 900mm
Greatest single dimension - 600mm. 2kg in weight.

Tom, I found a thin but stiff 4mm wooden box that might solve the 'protection-weight-size' issue.

It measures 21cmL x 14cmW x 5cmH, with a max girth of 40cm. By itself, it weighs 160grams and should comfortably accomodate 8 breather bags. The bags will be wrapped individually with a thin layer of filter pad and contain ONE fish each. The box will go into a large bubble-pack envelope and that ought to qualify as packet delivery.

From what I understand about these bags, 'breathability' is closed off when the plastic material touches another surface. Hence, the layer of filter wool maintains a 'space' between bags and also offers some protection and shock-absorption from rough handling.

I could send you a few pairs of killies in the said box and results from that shipment can be contributed to your friend's article. You get to keep the fishes, of course :wink: If you're game, pop me an email with your shipping address and I'll work on it.

I have 2 such boxes so just let me know if you need them. Alternatively, there are plastic boxes used for business calling cards, or 3½ computer diskettes, and each of these can hold 2 pad-wrapped breather bags. These will fit most padded envelopes.

There's also a couple of styrofoam boxes in my storeroom, that Hikari uses for their frozen bloodworms (and other stuffs), that can be considered depending on the weather at your end.

For declaration, I'll keep things simple with "Perishable samples" or even simpler... just "Fry" or "Fish eggs" :wink:

Should anyone find misintepretation/misinformation in my posts, please let me know.

Use a old music CD casing then inset in the bubble envelope should work. I think Mr Loh did it this way

Kho, IIRC, the CD casing was used to send plants preserved in agar, not fish fry. It would be too thin to fit a breather bag with air space (and a fish in it!)

[blinkytom]

Hi again

2. I believe put "Fry for Aquarium Research Purpose" should be ok.

Thanks for your suggestion Kho, I was looking for the right phrase to show that the contents was to be kept in captivity and not released into local waters, I think you got it just right.

Tom, I found a thin but stiff 4mm wooden box that might solve the 'protection-weight-size' issue.

It measures 21cmL x 14cmW x 5cmH, with a max girth of 40cm. By itself, it weighs 160grams and should comfortably accomodate 8 breather bags. The bags will be wrapped individually with a thin layer of filter pad and contain ONE fish each. The box will go into a large bubble-pack envelope and that ought to qualify as packet delivery.

That box sounds perfect for the job. It is a few cms larger than a standard VHS video case which I thought could be another possible option. The main worry I have with a plastic video case is the amount of air available inside. I'm guessing the plastic won't be able to breathe itself which will restrict the air available to the bags. I think a wooden box would probably be able to breathe a bit more. I did think about drilling air holes in the case but I thought it might result in widely fluctuating temperatures. What do you think?

After looking on Ebay in the shipping supplies section I found some cardboard boxes designed specifically for VHS videos. The worry I have with this option is that the cardboard may not provide enough protection.

I have some 3 1/2" computer disk boxes which as you mention are another possibility, but they are made of plastic and may have the same breathability problems as the video case.

With all these options we'll just have to do plenty of swaps to test them all

For declaration, I'll keep things simple with "Perishable samples" or even simpler... just "Fry" or "Fish eggs"

I'm tempted to use "Fish eggs" as suggesting that there are live fish present will probably just attract attention. I think "Perishable samples" could also attract some curious customs workers. When sending eggs abroad I use "Fish eggs for scientific study" to try to make it clear that they won't be released into the wild.

I'm definatly game for a swap, hopefully we can prove that international trading is very possible. I'll PM you my shipping address.

Thanks very much for all the ideas.

[RonWill]

Tom, I'll put some fishes through a 4-day fast so there'll be minimal waste to foul the little water they're packed in.

If there's leftover space in the box, you might find some developing eggs of Ap. AUS EBT 97-24.

Will ship 'em out on Monday to avoid having them sit around at the PO over the weekend as well.

Will shoot pics as I work and your friend can use these in his article, if he so wishes. No problems with 'intellectual rights'. All in good fun and in the name of killie-keepers' goodwill.

With all these options we'll just have to do plenty of swaps to test them all

Couldn't have said it better myself :wink:

BTW, what's the pH of your water, straight out from the mains?

[blinkytom]

Thanks Ronnie

I look forward to recieving the fish (fingers crossed all alive and well) and I'll get some fish sorted to send back in return.

I'm sure Steve (my friend who's writing the article) will be very glad of any photos.

My tap water is about pH 8 and pretty hard. I have no problems using it for growing on soft water killies and some even lay eggs in it but I use rain water for serious breeding attempts. I'll let you know what water conditions each species is shipped in.

[shortman]

Ronnie,

Saw the box in the gallery not sure is this the one.
I post it here without your permission.



Bregards

[RonWill]

Thanks Kho,
I was having hell, trying to figure out the 'URL path' to that image. Getting to the picture via browsing gave me this addy:
http://killies.com/forum/modules.php...view_photo.php

Yes, that's the wooden box I was referring to and has a thin slide-in acrylic cover.

However, while at the LFS, Jian Yang suggested that the Hikari box may be more suitable. It's definitely lighter at only 32grams and can take a good drop but lacks compressive strength (in case a heavier parcels stack on it).

To beef it up, I made some 'struts' out of corrugated cardboard, as in the following clickable image;


drats... took me too long to figure this addy as well
http://www.killies.com/forum/albums/...ippingBox2.jpg (Kho, I think it's best if you can put up a FAQ on linking images to the forum thread. It's not intuitive for the non-IT folks!)
Anyway, the modified foam box measures 20L x 16W x 7cmH and I'll use this one for our trial. Together with the 'cross-struts' and a 'border insert', it comes up to 80grams (half the weight of the wooden one), but if it deforms beyond recognition by the time you get it, I'll go with 'woody'.

The fishes will start their fast later today and hit the PO Monday morning.

[blinkytom]

Hi all

Is it just me or are some of the icons of the forum not showing up? Some of the Smilies and the delete/edit post icons amoungst a couple of other things. I also can't see the photos in the gallery. I hope I don't have some sort of virus :s

The new box sounds good and will probably provide a more stable environment for the fishes in terms of temperature. Being slightly larger there will be more space for air too.

[stormhawk]

Tom,

Just a suggestion, do a check on your IE security settings. It could be possible that the settings are preventing your browser from loading up some files properly. I do get that problem from time to time but that was when I was accessing the web from my army base. At home I have no problems with loading or viewing the pics in the gallery.

By the way, is your friend writing the article for PFK? I've been reading PFK for a few months now and some editions are great for keeping, especially the ones with product comparisons.

[blinkytom]

Jian Yang, thanks for the suggestion. I've tried playing around the the settings for a few minutes but nothing seems to have worked. Even with the security settings set on low they don't show up. I don't get this problem on any other website. I'm getting very frustrated and I'm half thinking about formatting and starting again

No the article isn't for PFK, it's for the journal of the BKA. Did you read the article a few months back called something like "Killies - the myths" by Steve Davidson. That's the friend who's writing the article on breathing bags.

[RonWill]

Tom, my fave browser is Netscape (ver 7.01 installed in my home PC) but it's cranky with this site and IE v6 loads up all icons without a hitch. Could it be that you're using an older release of the browsers? An upgrade maybe?

Java scripts has something to do with uploading pics to the gallery (workplace uses old Netscape) but no problem with just viewing.

For the foam box, I'm thinking too, that it will buffer changable weather (just in case) and am eager to see how it works out (a bonus if all the fishes survive!).

Since photo usage are non-commercial (and for the benefit of other killie-keepers), Steve has my expressed permission to use the images as he see fit. Just let me know what pic resolution is most suitable for his purpose.

I don't think any of the local boys, including myself, are members of the BKA but is there a URL to the "Killies - the myths" article?

[stormhawk]

Hi Tom,

Yes I believe I've read that article before but I didn't buy that particular issue. Was browsing through the issue at the bookstore. Can't remember the contents though but it was a pretty short article. I like PFK for the content, sometimes you get little gems of info on how to recreate biotope tanks. In any case, if the BKA journal's released, do give us a look or two at the article. :wink:

[rthien]

Ronnie,

(Kho, I think it's best if you can put up a FAQ on linking images to the forum thread. It's not intuitive for the non-IT folks!)

I made an attempt with instructions on how to get the URL and thus the images in our Gallery to show up in our post using IE and Netscape/Mozilla browsers. Since all this is very familiar to me, I may have left out steps that are not obvious to others! Take a look at:

http://www.killies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=905

And let me know if I should change it to simplify the instructions or add anything else to make it for more complete for non-IT folks.

Cheers,

Roger

[RonWill]

And let me know if I should change it to simplify the instructions or add anything else to make it for more complete for non-IT folks.

Roger, thanks for putting up the FAQ. It should be simple enough to understand.

One comment tho. The 'desktop graphic' is huge and dial-up'ers have enough time to go make coffee :wink: A resize perhaps?

[RonWill]

Hiya Tom,

Jian Yang and I did some 'fishing' today and the following species will be heading your way;
1 pair - Fp. GAR "N'sukka" (Patrick Coleman's 'blue-form')
2 pairs - Aplo. kirchmayeri (Goa Killie - Commercial import '04)
2 pairs - Ps. annulatus (Clown Killie - Farm-raised parent stock, Asian-source)

The Goa & Clown killies are home-bred and should be tolerant to greater fluctuations in temp and water conditions ('boot-camp' trained :wink: )

Also packed a couple of Ap. AUS EBT 97-24* eggs that're close to hatching. The tannic water is just previously-boiled peat tea (no ketapang brew mixed in). Get 'em tanks ready!

*This 1st batch of eyed-up EBT eggs are from a private egg order to David (received: Mar 4th '04 , hatch: Mar 11th)

I'm considering packing them in about 2 film-cannisters' worth of water, which isn't alot. Suggestions, anyone?

[blinkytom]

Hi Ronnie

Those fish sound great thanks. What water (ie. pH, hardness) are they being shipped in? I don't want to shock them too much by changing the water they go into at my end.

I've bred GAR before (they were the very first killies I kept) so I know what I'm doing with them. What pH and temperature do you recommend for the Goa Killies? I'll be putting the ANN into a rainwater tank stuffed with as much Java Moss as I can find. So your guessing the AUS will hatch enroute? I think as long as the eggs are fertile, in theory none should fungus and polute the water so 2 film canisters of water should be enough. This should be a good test for the bags.

Fish heading back to you will be-

1 pair A. primigenium Kanda GJS 00-18
1 pair A. riggenbachi Yellow (99% sure it's the Dibeng import to the UK in '01 but I recieved them with only the "Yellow" label so can't say for sure)
1 pair or maybe trio A. spoorenbergi (Aquarium strain)

Also having a stab at breeding Fp. sp. GS 2 and A. gabunense boehmi for the first time, any eggs produced will be heading your way too.

If anyone wants them I also have plenty of Endler's livebearers, Girardinus metallicus (Black Chin Livebearer) and Ameca splendens (an endangered Goodeid) that can be put in too. I'm assuming these will ship as well as the killies as they're Livebearing Toothcarps and killies are Egg-laying Toothcarps.

Another thing, is anyone in need of N. flammicomantis Kisaki females? as I have 2 and no male.

Ronnie, Steve's article was in PFK. It's purpose was to destroy the myths about Killies being hard to keep and only for the experienced hobbyist. If you promise not to distribute it (or tell PFK) I'll scan it for you.

Jian Yang, I've been a subscriber to PFK for around 5 years now and I agree, they really can give you some inspiration with the biotope tanks. The only thing I'm finding a bit tedious is the Q & A section, it always seems to be the same questions being asked.

[Slaigar]

Hello Tom,
N. flammicomantis Kisaki is quite a beauty. I have just recently seen pictures of it on the internet. Too bad you do not have a breeding pair, this species would be lovely to have around more. Do you have a source for N. flammicomantis eggs?

[blinkytom]

Hi Mark

Yes the flammicomantis are a very nice fish, I'm very disappointed about only having 2 females. I bought a pair in an auction a year or so ago but only got 2 fry out of them, which both turned out to be female. I've read the sex ratio is usually male heavy but not in my case. There may well be someone in the UK keeping these fish, if I see them in another auction I'll definatly buy a pair or 2.

[RonWill]

Ap. AUS EBT 97-24 eggs

Fp. GAR "N'sukka" (Patrick Coleman's 'blue-form')
(1 Pair, single packing)

Ps. annulatus (Pair & single packing)

Aplo. kirchmayeri (Pair & single packing)

double checking content & labels...

All packed and ready to go!

Tom, I was editing pics and forgot the time... missed the PO closing Will drop it off tomorrow.

Bigger pics are at the gallery and please wait while I do up a web page for the commentaries.

I have a pair of Endler's livebearers but the female is not throwing fry. Pack in a pair, only if you have extras.

PS: Water has color-tint from the 'Japanese Yellow Powder' which I usually add in when transporting fishes. I suspect it to be acriflavin-based and a few extra breather bags within the packet.