I was wondering, what fish diseases do common antibiotics like Erythromycin cure? Would it be effective in the case of internal bacterial infections and how does a fish absorb the treatment? Would appreciate any insight on this. :wink:
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Jianyang,
Maracyn (Erythromycin) - medication made by Mardel treats: body fungus, fin and tail rot, popeye and gell disease.
E. M. Tablets (Erythromycin) - medication made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals helps treat erythromycin-susceptible bacterial diseases of aquarium fish, such as body slime & eye cloud, mouth fungus, furunculosis, and hemorrhagic septicemia (blood spots w/o sign of skin damage).
Hope you will find this link helpful.
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/antibiotics.htm
Hi Jay,
Sorry, but my view on erythromycin on treatment of bacterial diseases in fishes differs.
You see, erythromycin is a broad spectrum anitbiotics, which is more effective mostly against gram positive bacteria. The trouble is, most of the pathogenic bacteria in fish diseases are mainly gram negative. So far, the only common gram positive bacteria I know of is Mycobacterium marinum, or fish TB. Even in fish TB, erythromycin is not effective.
Hence, I don not think that erythromycin should be the first drug of choice for treatment of common bacterial diseases.
Antibiotics, if they are misused, the chance of creating resistant strains of bacteria is rather high. Tetracycline is not really effective when dealing with farm bred fishes anymore, as many farmers have abuse this drug and resistant strains are rampant.
Personally, my drug of choice now for bacterial infection, would be the nitrofuran group of drugs, as chances of dealing of a resistant form to nitrofuran are still small, although this had been reported recently. They're known as chemotherapeutics and antimicrobial, not antibiotics.
I'm also quite reluctant to recommend antibiotics to hobbyists actually, simply because most of them under dose as they have this unfounded fear that the recommended dosage may kill their fishes. As a result, bacteria can easily build up a resistant to the drug, and the fish still dies.
Cheers,
Kenny
Thanks Jay and Kenny,
I've heard of Maracyn and have heard of how effective it is in treating some disease but its very hard to come across such medications in the market here in Singapore. I've only seen Maracyn once and that was many years ago. Anyone saw this for sale anywhere? If its really effective against fungus then I'll want to have a bottle in my war-chest against fish diseases.
The link was highly informative and appreciate the share of information. :wink: I did come across this line in the page from the section on the Nitrofuran group - "However, they are carcinogenic and mutagenic and their use with food fish is illegal in most countries."
If the nitrofuran-group drugs are carcinogenic they would be very difficult to get and dangerous to use right? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have had very little success in treating some diseases with the only success being that against white spot.
Kenny, regarding the dosage of antibiotics, if they were to be used, what should the dosage be for a tank that's 3ft in length if they were to be fully effective? In this case the drugs would be amoxycillin and erythromycin.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Hi Jian Yang,
Hmm... it is indeed a revelation to me that erythromycin has anti-fungal property!
Ok, I'm looking into my books now, both Basleer and Untergasser, but both do not have any recommendation for the use of amoxicillin in bacterial diseases. In fact, I cannot recall any books suggesting the use of this antibiotic in aquatic diseases. I guess it must have poor efficacy.
However, the closest I can get is penicillin, which is in the same class as amoxicillin. The recommended dosage is 1.5-2 g per 100L for 24-48 hrs. Side effects would be both nephro (kidney) and hepato (liver) -toxicity.
Talking abt bath therapy (ie. adding medication into water), the absorption is usually through the gills and to a smaller extent, the skin. However, I think the ideal passage is still IV (intravenous). This is tough to perform a small fishes, and probably have to adminstered through sub-cutaneous injection at highly vascularized part of the fish, usually near the caudal peduncle, or just at the base of the pectoral fins.
I forgot to mention another antibiotics, which is becoming increasingly popular : Metronidazole or Flagyl as it is commonly known. It acts against gram negative bacteria and at the same time, is effective against protozoa like the hexmita and the spironucleus. I know of fish vets who use it as a antibiotics of choice these days.
Abt nitrofurans like nifurpurinol and nitrofurazone, well you still can get it in LFS, if you look hard enough. Some medications are thought to have them as an active ingredient (Jap yellow powder???). Personally, I don't think it is dangerous to use if you know what you're doing.
Abt the prognosis for internal bacteria treatment, this is usually quite poor for 2 simple reasons:
1. Most medication are adminstered as a bath, which is usually poorly absorbed.
2. Signs and symptoms are usually shown in a more advanced stage of the disease, and hence prompt treatment cannot be rendered.
Cheers,
Kenny
Thanks again for the information. I guess I have to look harder for those medications containing the Nitrofuran-group compounds. There is however a commercial product from Sera that supposed to be clear fishes of any internal bacteria infestations. Can't remember what the packaging said but the name of the product is Sera BaktoTabs. Its in tablet form and supposed to be fed to the fishes. The other medication would be Sera BaktoPur.
Has anyone used either of these products or any of the so-called Internal Bacteria medications?
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Jianyang,
I have this product - Befuran - whose active ingredient is nifurpirinol. It says on the packaging ' Formulated in USA, Processed in Singapore'.
If you want to try it - on your fishes, not you- I can pass it to you.
Zulkifli
Sheesh...how can I forget about BeFuran? Yes, it should contain either nifurpurinol or nitrofurazone, but the former should be the safer of the two.
Sorry Jian Yang, have not tried the Sera pdt range before, so can't comment on their efficacy.
Cheers,
Kenny
I find myself mostly in agreement with what Kenny has to say.
Human antibiotics, like tetracycline and erythromycin have no useful place in the aquarium. Adequate dosage is often lethal and underdosing creates strains of bacteria that may not even bother the fish but may do great damage to humans, particularly little babies with underdeveloped immune systems. They are prescription-only in Britain, I think. Soon that may be true here in the US.
When I caught Fish TB, Mycobacterium marinum, we were down to only 3 known antibiotics that were still effective, and there were known resistant strains to all 3! Others had been used too long to undertreat it and the choices were really poor. I had to take 2 pills a day that cost US$6 each for well over 6 months to get my "Fishkeeper's Finger" and the lymph nodes in my right arm back to normal.
Myco is an oddball in that its waxy coating resists almost all known surface-attacking agents. Even bleach doesn't kill it! Only solvents like acetone and alcohol are effective in disinfecting the tanks and objects exposed to it.
I'm now of the opinion that the fish are not worth the hazard, 90% of the time. If they are worth it, dosing in food or by injection is mandatory, usually. Solution of it in their water just doesn't get enough in to do the job properly.
External bacteria, like Columnaris can be treated with antibacterials, like analine or other dyes and salt, without much danger of creating resistant strains. BTW, many folks mistake this for "Mouth Fungus" and it is not.
I have never encountered a real fungus as a primary fish disease. Any necrotic tissue, such as around a bacterial sore, parasite bite or other mechanical wound, will allow fungus to grow. It is not initially attacking living flesh and just doing its proper clean-up job on the rot. Eventually it will invade healthy tissue and help kill, but the primary cause must be found and treated for any useful cure. A little salt and/or methlene blue will get rid of the fungal growth. The fish still almost always die from the primary infection, by then.
BTW. Fungus never ever attacks living eggs. Infertile or bacteria-killed eggs turn white because the yolk turns white. Only later do the fungus strands start to show as the water clean-up process gets rolling. Fungus does not spread to healthy eggs, ever. The world is full of myths in this area.
These myths come mostly from those without any skill with a microscope. They are doomed to remain clueless, I fear.
My favorite antibacterial agent is peat water, soft enough that the pH is down in the 5-6.5 region. This is a most inhospitable environment for the vast bulk of common fish-pathogen bacteria, but tolerated by most fish. Coupled with good aeration, or even addition of chemical oxygenators, a good environment for fish and bad one for bacteria lets their immune systems defeat the invader. Oak leaves seem to help add antibacterial humins to the stained water. Your tropical almond leaves probably do the same. I wonder about malaleuka (sp?) tree extracts?
Use really soft water only if you have zero nitrites, as adding salt can be lethal if the other blood electrolytes (Ca++, Mg++, K+) are missing in the water. [Normally, salt can provide sodium to prevent the suffocating effect of nitrites on the blood (Brown Blood disease).]
Also be careful to gradually acclimate sensitive fish. Some can be dunked right in, but most want an adjustment period of an hour ot two. Adding stress to sick fish seems unwise, to me. Always dip net the fish from the drip-acclimation water to avoid transferring extra bacteria with the old tank water.
That's my US$0.020514 ($0.02, adjusted for inflation).
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
Wright,Originally Posted by whuntley
Thanks for your response. Are you saying that Erythromycin is not used in US ?. I'm confused.
When I worked in Hospital Pharmacy few years ago we use to administer Erythromycin orally or 500mg IV.
I used products mentioned in my initial reply (250mg dose) in aquarium without adverse reaction. Advanced BGA could be treated with Erythromycin as well if blackout/increase of water movement/increase of KNO3 is not helpful.
Stormhawk,
If you need some, I could send you any of those products from US. Just cover the S&H and price for actual product.
When I worked in a hospital, I used to take 250mg samples and use them in aquarium if needed.
No. I'm just saying that use in the aquarium is very unwise.Wright,
Thanks for your response. Are you saying that Erythromycin is not used in US ?. I'm confused.
snip...
It is an incredibly stupid way to kill BGA, and guarantees a return since the real cause is not dealt with.
Otherwise its only function in aquarium water, that can be documented, is to create resistant strains of bacteria, many of which attack humans and not fish.
It is available at any LFS in the states, as is tetracycline. That availability does not excuse one from using it wisely, IMO.
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
As Wright so diplomatically put it, I don't use erythromycin to treat BGA,
either, or any other antibiotics if I can use some other method. I'm not a
pharmacist, but I've had to work independent duty in some out-of-the-way
places as a pharmacy tech (16years out of 20, US Navy).
In day-to-day sickcall patients complaining of respiratory problems, erythromycin has been largely replaced by latter-day macrolides: clarithromycin ( Biaxin) a semi-synthetic, and azithromycin (Zithromax) an azalide. They have shorter regimens, generally, (ie: Z-pak which takes 5 days) yielding better patient compliance and fewer side effects, and a wider spectrum of defense against gram neg and gram pos bacteria.
I find it appalling that international e-stores sell to anyone just about any
antibiotic available--yes, you don't need to be an MD or have a prescription. Gosh, and they used to say a doctor who treats himself has a fool for a patient
Bill
farang9
Oh, my. You are so right, Bill. I was a lot less than diplomatic on my BGA comments, so I accept your irony as an appropriate slap on the wrist.
This forum isn't privy to all the misuse of human antibiotics that have become commonplace in the US. My disgust at such abuses spilled over into my comments. Please let me rephrase my message.
Blue-Green algae is often treated with erythromycin, but it always immediately returns. It is caused by a nutrient problem in most tanks, and can only be truly cured by fixing those imbalances. Meanwhile, a lot of bacteria that are harmful to humans are getting an underdose that allows the more resistant fractions to survive. IMHO, that is an unwise use of the product.
There. Is that a little less inflammatory?
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
Dear Wright,
I hope my admonishment was softened by the fact I'm 100% in agreement
with you!
Best regards,
Bill
farang9
Hi Wright and Bill,
I couldn't have agreed with you more, and I couldn't have summised better than both of you had!
I'm a medical practitioner myself, and naturally I've every access to medications.
Still I'd not use antibiotics, unless I'm sure that there's no alternatives. Thank God I hardly resort to this measure. Besides, I'd not purchase those medication that doesn't state its active ingredient, for you may not know if any of those contain any kind of antibiotics that can easily create resistant super bugs or not.
Even in us humans, we're getting alot of super bugs these days, what with the resistant strains of streptococcus and staphylococcus. Even TB is making a comeback!
For BGA, I'd think that the use of erythromycin is just a one-off treatment, which again bears the danger of creating resistant strains. You'd have to analyse and get to the bottom of what is actually wrong with your setup or fertilisation regime that encourage their growth. In my opinion, I'll try the balck out method first before using erythromycin.
The danger of hobbyists, who are looking for a quick fix and yet ill informed abt the potential dangers or the correct usage of antibiotics, is real. Many of them would often under-dose their tank, worried that an OD will kill their fishes and plants in there. And when these under-dosage do not seem to work, they repeat the treatment with the same dose again, and again. All these while, we're just coaxing and encouraging these bugs to get back at us!
Just 2 cts worth of my thoughts,
Kenny
PS. Still I don't think erythromycin is the drug of choice with aquatic disease of bacterial origin.
In my experience, antibiotics tend to screw up the filter and the tank will cycle again after their use - which is likely to kill the weakened fish that you were trying to help.
I used it once on BGA when I was struggling on my first planted tank. The BGA was so aggressive that my plants were getting coated before they got a chance to compete with it. It worked and that particular algae didn't come back, however armed with a much higher understanding of fertilization schemes I know that I can kill the stuff easilly by adding more nitrates, iron and potassium. The counter-intuitive nature of algae generally signalling to little nutrients, rather than too much, cause newer people to do all kinds of unhelpfull things such as bleach dipping, blackouts, antibiotics and massive water changes when their plants really just need a better diet so they can fight off the algae on their own.
Well.
Let's clear something out here. As I stated below:
BGA is fairly easy to combat and I have yet to have difficult time with removal.Advanced BGA could be treated with Erythromycin as well if blackout/increase of water movement/increase of KNO3 is not helpful.
Would I recommend Erythromycin as #1 choice to battle with BGA - NO.
Is it doable to battle BGA with Erythromycin - YES. I tried it and it worked just fine.
I agree with most of your comments except blackouts. Why would you consider this a "newbie" approach. This would be my suggestion after correction of NO3 levels and correction of sufficient water movement. Black out is harmless and easy do accomplish.newer people to do all kinds of unhelpfull things such as bleach dipping, blackouts, antibiotics and massive water changes when their plants really just need a better diet so they can fight off the algae on their own.
I usually tell people to add sufficient amount of NO3, increase water movement, cover your tank for ~5 days and enjoy disappearance of BGA.
As for as use of Erythromycin in Medicine you guys cleared it up with some valid data and facts.
I don't like blackouts because you're punishing both the plants and the algae at the same time. I view the algae as a symptom of another problem, so I don't go attacking the algae directly any more. For the first 6 months with my tank I was constantly getting blooms of new species of algae, in response to different things. In the end I've got 4 or 5 bottles and jars of stuff in the stand that I add regularly and seems to address all the plants needs, so algae almost never comes around.
Leaf Zone (Fe and K)
Regular Flourish (micros)
KNO3
Epsom salt (Mg)
Fleet Phosphates
I believe cyanobacteria fix their own nitrogen, so generally grow in places where there isn't enough nitrates. My plants were iron deficient at the time too, so maybe BGA also doesn't like iron.
How big of an adverse reaction you had when blackouts were used. All my plants did extremely well during blackout. I was actually shocked how much they grew during period of 5 days where everything was covered. I must have missed few spots here and there and every single plant was leaning towards those spots. Even Cryptocoryne wendtii leaves where growing perfectly straight during that approach.
I have yet to hear people complain about any adverse reactions using this method. The only bad thing that could happen is that it will not work.
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