A series of Diana Walstad-styled setups

[whuntley]

Excellent Budak,

It had exactly what I wanted to see.

A few quick conclusions based on looking at the data.

You certainly need to use carbon filtering or one of the formaldehyde-like dechloraminators, to avoid a burst of nasty ammonium when doing water changes (if only old-fashioned hypo-based dechlorinators were used).

Your water is fairly soft compared to the US average water, so keep that in mind when reading killietalk. Some US areas, like the Sierras and upstate NY, do have very soft water, but they are not the rule.

You appear to have adequate hardness so that adding sodium (as salt) will not cause big problems. It can be useful in protecting against velvet and nitrite toxicity (Brown Blood Disease).

It is such nice water that I would want to start a fish farm, if I lived there.



Wright

[PeterGwee]

Wright, I am quite puzzled by your review of our tap water conditions. In my opinion, I don't see the need for carbon filtering other than a dechlorinator. Ain't we talking about stuff to use in planted tanks? Plants are the best equipment when it comes to removing ammonia...bacteria merely acts as a backup in case the plants do not remove it fast enough. Carbon isn't the best thing to add to a planted tank...it just ain't necessary from my point of view.

Oh, I do agree with you that critters need minerals in water in order to grow and survive. Just that I am tackling ronnie's issues from a planted guys perspective.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[whuntley]

Wright, I am quite puzzled by your review of our tap water conditions. In my opinion, I don't see the need for carbon filtering other than a dechlorinator. Ain't we talking about stuff to use in planted tanks? Plants are the best equipment when it comes to removing ammonia...bacteria merely acts as a backup in case the plants do not remove it fast enough. Carbon isn't the best thing to add to a planted tank...it just ain't necessary from my point of view.


Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

Hi Peter,

I always keep some fish in any planted tank, and fish do not tolerate any ammonia above a few parts per billion. The damage is subtle and not always obvious.

The carbon filtration I suggested must not be done in the tank. It is a slow in-line prefiltering of the tap water to get rid of chloramine safely. I prefer it to the dechloraminators because they tend to kill all inverts, including useful infusoria. They are really bad news if you are breeding killies, as they deprive the babies of the best of all first foods.

I almost never use carbon in a tank, even to remove dyes. It sequesters and releases stuff at the worst possible times, for me.

Your water has so much nitrate (as ammonia) that the use of hypo (sodium thiosulfate) should never be considered if any fish are involved. That is the main ingredient in the old-fashioned dechlorinators (that "break the chlorine ammonia bond"). The ammonia burst may not bother your fish at first, but if pH is much above 7.5, they will get injured with every water change. Avoid such products if you want a disease-free fishroom.

Wright

[RonWill]

Ronnie, what's your main choice of critters for this tank? If you are not going to have bottom feeders, I just feel that the plant mass is simply too low

Peter,
I'm undecided between 2 combined groups of killies with a 20~30 fish count and a 'standard compliment' of tankmates including (approximately) 4 pygmy Corys, 8 Cherry Shrimps, 2 otos and some ramhorn snails.

Make sure the entire ground is filled with plants...more and more plants. Don't hold back on that..it will set the tank in better and faster.

Echis are heavy root feeders and I suspect the smaller filler plants may not be able to compete. If the E. tenellus and latifolius grows slowly but steadily, I'm aiming at 40~60% substrate coverage, with a larger area cleared for dropping tubifex or where I place the bottom spawning mops.

Extensive plant coverage, IMHO, creates more 'dead-spots' than necessary or so dense where even cories wouldn't dare venture. I'm a heavy handed feeder and all cleaning/salvage-crew have to work doubly hard especially when the tank isn't aerated or filtered.

As for the floating plants, 10-20% of the entire surface area would do it..you do not want too much of them as they are nutrient hogs and can block off alot of light. The main idea behind floating plants in non-CO2 tanks is act as an insurance in case you overfeed or so

My lack of lower level plants is offset by 50~60% floater coverage, with the remaining surface covered by long leaves from E. uruguayensis, 'Rubin', etc. Reduced light level is not a major concern. Finding killie-crispies, however, is not acceptable.

I'm expecting the floater and foliage feeding to reduce nutrient excess in the water column, which in turn will minimize algae outbreaks (partial indulgment in wishful thinking).

Mentioned earlier, even though this's supposedly a DW-styled tank (but Diana doesn't breed killies), I'll suppliment substrate fertilizer sticks as needed. For the chemistry bit, I'll need a little more time to digest the details.

Remember that pulsing of ammonia by the critters must not exceed the uptake threshold of the plants and bacteria in the tank or else you will get algae.

Likewise, in a light bio-load setup, if the plant nutrient uptake is higher than what is provided, from the decomposition of fish poop, detritus, etc, symptoms of nutrient deficiency will also show in the foliage.

[aquaturbo]

Does the E. berteroi have short [b]leaf petiole or leaf stalk. I'd like to have a 'curtain' effect with the leaves starting close to the gravel.

I haven't grow the E. berteroi long enough to see all the variation of the plant. As documented, the E. berteroi is a very variable plant. So far it had grown long petiole and pointed leaves. After a replanted it, it is currently growing slender val like leaves with no petiole. Currently the height is about 20cm.

SW, I checked on the angustifolius at Tropica and it grows to a max of 30cm, which is still a little short.

But if your 'curtain' is too thick, the others will suffer. And your tank is not that big anyway. Unless you want to prune it constantly. If that's really what you want, Rubin Narrow is the choice. Keong Seong at Havelock constantly stocks it. Well, it still will produce a certain length of petiole. My memory says it is about one third the total length of the leaf.

E. tenellus and E. latifolius are interspersed in the mid/foreground. I'm not sure how the foliage will develop in my tank's condition but I'll see which leaf-form better compliments the overall look and will remove as needed.

Prune away the runners of the E. bolivianus(aka E. latifolius) and let it become a solitary plant. It will be nice. It won't produce runner as fast as E. quadricostatus. Let the E. tenellue creep around it.


The plant you have is Aflame.



The plant in your brother-in-law tank is E. X barthii.



In the old Oriental's plant catalog, there was E. sp "Narrow leaf". In the new updated catalog, it is rename to Echi. sp "Long Leaf". Same plant. Have it, not really a big plant. Slow growing submersed.

Likewise, in a light bio-load setup, if the plant nutrient uptake is higher than what is provided, from the decomposition of fish poop, detritus, etc, symptoms of nutrient deficiency will also show in the foliage.

Yah, you might see Mg shortage soon in the foliage.


Sze Wei

[RonWill]

I haven't grow the E. berteroi long enough to see all the variation of the plant. As documented, the E. berteroi is a very variable plant. So far it had grown long petiole and pointed leaves. After a replanted it, it is currently growing slender val like leaves with no petiole. Currently the height is about 20cm

Thanks Sze Wei for the info. The Rubin is filling up the space nicely and I'm quite happy with the result so far. Think I'll leave the two Aponogeton crispus in there and lay off fiddling with the setup, letting it mature slowly.

Prune away the runners of the E. bolivianus(aka E. latifolius) and let it become a solitary plant. It will be nice. It won't produce runner as fast as E. quadricostatus. Let the E. tenellue creep around it

The latifolius is complimentary from Koah Fong (thanks!) and it'll take some time before it takes hold. I'll watch the progress and prune as you recommended.

The plant in your brother-in-law tank is E. X barthii.

Ah... seems like I've been looking for the wrong plant! but it's so beautifully tempting especially when you say it a 'slow growing' echi :wink:

IIRC, Mg deficiency shows up as yellowing of older leaves. I believe what's in my 'toy box' is Magnesium sulphate... this will do, ya?

I'll be editing my original post's heading to better reflect a series of Diana Walstad-styled tanks, which aren't all-echinodorus, but based on what tickled my fancy at that point in time.

That said, this is the 3rd DW-styled tank based on a 24"L x 12"W x 18"H Nisso tank with curved front corners, from a turntable-spinning friend (thanks! Casey). It was completed on Sunday with 3 main plant group;
Cyperus helferi, Blyxa aubertii and B. japonica. The 'supporting actors' are 2 pieces of driftwood that have been soaking at Eco-culture's tank (sorry to disappoint those who have been eyeing at it :wink: )


The rest of the pictures are at the DW-gallery.

Opinions and critique welcomed.

[ruyle]

Ronnie,
Have you planted any moss in your Walstad set-ups? I noticed on the Wet
Thumbs forum that Diana moderates, that she doesn't like using mosses
in her soil-based tanks. The Taiwan moss I got from KL (Thanks!) has been
doing so-so in the Walstad tank and is just now throwing out new growth
after looking brown-and-down in parts. Will be removing the brown parts
in a day or two, and tying the moss more securely to a lava rock.

Bill
farang9

[Piscesgirl]

Wright, can you explain to me the reason why declorinators will kill inverts? (I have well water without clorine/cloramines but I would like to know this for future reference as I keep shrimp).
Thanks!

[whuntley]

Wright, can you explain to me the reason why declorinators will kill inverts? (I have well water without clorine/cloramines but I would like to know this for future reference as I keep shrimp).
Thanks!

Mach Fukada, of Hawaii, may have been the first to notice that "Amquel" tended to kill his Daphnia and Moina cultures.

Subsequently, I have tested several modern dechloraminators, and found they all tend to kill small invertebrates. [I have even run out of formaldehyde and used "Amquel" to clear a tank of hydra. ]

Different invertebrates show different resistance, but the smallest ones that we call "infusoria," like rotifers and paramecia are wiped out quickly by them. Shrimps may be fairly immune, IDK. Ostracods are much hardier than Daphnia in "Amquel."

The ones I tested quite a bit include "Prime," "Ammo Lock 2." and "Amquel."

After conversations with John F. Kuhns, the "Amquel" inventor, and subsequent reading, it appears all the dechloraminators,that can sequester the ammonium/ammonia, are similar to formaldehyde. It is a tanning agent that cross-links proteins and does a real number on smaller simpler animals. It's like the inverse of chlorine bleach, which tends to break them up or "digest" them.

I still love it for use in shipping water, but otherwise I'm very careful to keep it away from my plants and fish, so a drop of "Liquifry No. 1" can produce an infusoria bloom whenever I need it.

I notice the lively population of infusoria tends to keep my tanks much clearer, as they filter feed on free-floating bacteria and things like Euglena species that can cloud the water.

Wright

[ruyle]

Wright,
Could you describe what's involved with your "multiple carbon filter" you
use in place of Amquel-type products? (Maybe this should be another thread)

Bill

[Piscesgirl]

Thank you Wright!

I'm with Bill -- I would also like to know how to treat the water that has cloramines/clorine without the declorinator products. I'm sorry if this needs to go in another thread

[whuntley]

Bill and Deborah,

When I was in chloraminated Fremont, I built a rig that filled my tap reservoir (a 40G food-safe plastic barrel). The main control was a swamp-cooler valve on the barrel that automatically kept it topped off. This is a simple float valve that costs about US$5 in dry country and is probably unheard of in SG, Huntsville, or NC.

The filters were two carbon-block filters (sometimes called whole-house filters or "taste and odor") hooked in series. The cartridges were about 9" long and 2.5" in diameter. Flow rate was limited by a simple drip-irrigation ball valve, so the water trickled very slowly through the filters.

I had a second outlet valve and short stub of 1/4" poly line, between the filters. That's where I tested for chlorine every month or so. Eventually, I would detect faint traces of chlorine (chloramine) between the filters as the first one saturated and started to "punch through." I then threw that cartridge away, and installed the nearly unused one from number two holder to the first one. A new filter cartridge then went into the second holder.to start the process over.

Chlorine, chloramine and ammonia are only weakly grabbed by activated carbon, so water flow should be pretty slow to increase contact time and improve filter efficiency. Using two in series assured that I never let any chloramine get into my fish water, while still keeping most of the dissolved minerals that are essential for life.

I had a second adjacent barrel collecting my RO water. I used a small waterfall pump, attached to 60' of 1/2" clear vinyl tubing that could reach every tank in the house. I just lifted the pump from one barrel to the other to get whatever amount of tap or RO water I need for a particular mixture. The pump was on a BSR X-10 remote switch, so I could turn it on from a remote controller, anywhere I was working. I did have to purge the 60' hose every time I used it, so I would not get the nasty plasticisers into my tanks in measurable quantities.

Betta breeder, Lew Heifner, once put up a nice picture of a system patterned after mine, so I never did write it up. You may contact Lew at [email protected] and see if he still has a link to it, somewhere.

Wright

[ruyle]

Thanks for the info, Wright. I emailed Lew for the link, if still available.
Sounds like this is a cheap and effective alternative to using chemicals,
which I would like to avoid. I have chlorinated water with fluoride in HSV,
but if I ever live in "chloramine country" this is the way to go! :wink: