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Thread: Killie companions - Breeding the Pseudomugil gertrudae

  1. #1
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    Killie companions - Breeding the Pseudomugil gertrudae

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    Hi folks,

    I've had Pseudomugil gertrudae self-propagating in a permanent setup at my old home but after the house move, I had a tough time acquiring these again. Some LFS didn't stock them simply because they won't sell... hobbyists tend to bypass these understated jewels.

    Jian Yang got wind of my search and pointed out to a LFS source in Pseudomugil/popondetta? gertrudae thread and even he managed to get a spawn in Non killie- Spotted Blue-eye fry.

    Working with the gertrudae isn't difficult. Condition them well and they'll group-spawn readily in floating mops.

    Here's one of my breeder males


    One can either water incubate the whole mop in round takeaway containers or pick out the eggs, which will show rapid embryol development and hatching out within 7~10 days.

    Look at my recent 'harvest'...


    Upon hatching, the fry are free-swimming quickly and hugs the water surface. This makes them easy to scoop out with a plastic chinese soup spoon and are transferred to a grow-out tray.

    The fry do well in infusoria soup or with moderate feeding directly from a paramecium culture and will take newly hatched BBS by the 3rd day.

    Beside gertrudae fry, I've ANNs and Cherry shrimplets growing together [just make sure that the ANNs are smaller as they'll predate on smaller tankmates]

    Grow-out tray with moss, najas and floaters


    Treat the gertrudae right and they'll reward you with prolific spawns. In addition to the 2 trays of fry, there's another that's incubating, plus about 150 eggs being shipped to the USA in breathers.

    Bill will be receiving his packed such;

    Keeping weight down, I resized the breather bag with a hot-sealer unit meant for vacuum-packing in the kitchen :wink:


    The filter floss wrapping each 'sachet' ensures unrestricted gaseous exchange and acts as a 'shock absorber'.


    An old audio cassette case... what better way to protect the content and to recycle my junk?

    I'm sure some of you are wondering why gertrudae is being discussed in the Killie section. Simple. Gertrudaes are excellent killifish companions at any given size and have taken to having them with all the killies I raise.

    They make the timid less so, the picky-eaters to pigs and add life and contrast to the tanks. The only down side I can think of would be finding their eggs in killie mops
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Ron,

    There is a well-accepted term in the hobby for what you are doing with the Blue-Eyes. It is called "dither fish."

    One of my favorite dithers is the so-called "Mosquito Fish," Heterandria formosa. It is called that because of its size and the barring on their tiny sides that looks a bit like the markings on some species of mosquito. [It isn't very good at eating mosquito larvae, as it is too small.] It is also called "Least Killifish" but that is a misnomer for they are livebearers.

    They are not at all like that other "Mosquito Fish" the erroneously introduced Damnbusia, who are vicious baby and egg predators, and who hardly ever eat mossie larvae.

    Good dither fish don't much eat killy eggs or babies, but help create a feeding frenzy that will get the most recalcitrant species to eat dry foods.

    H. formosa are really nice in that they don't eat their young and that makes them a great fish for a child's first tank. They are too tiny to have batches of babies, like guppies or mollys. Instead, momma drops one a day for about 20-30 days. As the babies grow, they are easily distinguished by size and a tank with one fertilized female will have a perfect staircase of sizes after a little while.

    Our fellow forum member, B. G. Granier is sending me some from Louisiana (where they are native), for the daughter of the local CA Fish and Game biologist. She is an avid aquarist at age nine.

    Some strains (like BG's) have a strong black eyespot in the dorsal, with a brilliant red-orange off-center surround. Once thought to be the world's smallest vertebrates, there are about 6 species of goby that now have beaten them for that title. They are still the smallest fresh-water fish you are likely to encounter. The pic in Baensch 1 is of a strain that lacks the pretty red splash in the dorsal. They are an interesting little fish, with or without the red. A big female will get to be a bit over 1.5" long. Males are usually about 3/4".

    Like gertrudae, they may be almost too small for dithers with many grown killies as they might be eaten by anything as big as GAR. Great for getting young fish to feed, though, and for getting shy fish out front where you can see them.

    I'd like to try them with Aphyo. celiae celiae to see if they can bring that very beautiful but ultra-shy fish out of hiding.

    Another pretty good dither fish is that smaller, but near-guppy, the Endler's Livebearer. [It does, however, eat eggs and babies, I suspect.]

    Wright

    PS. I love gertrudae. They are a truly beautiful little fish.
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

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    I got some Ps. gertrudae Jones Road N Queensland from a nameless friend in Australia a while back. They were lovely little fish!!! and very proliffic. They were mainly white with yellow chest. I wouldn't mind having them again. These really are under rated little fish. In fact all the Pseudomugils are just super little fish.

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    Wright, although somewhat demeaning for a pretty little fish, the term 'dither' is correct. 'Companion' sounds much kinder.

    IIRC, Heterandria formosa were never seen in LFS here. I may be wrong tho and could have walked past their tank, thinking them to be feeder guppies. Judging from your description, if it leave eggs and fry alone, these 'Least Killifish' are neat to have in grow out tanks too.

    When you can get a sizeable number of BG's strain going, let's practice packing these 'swimming eggs' in breathers. I'd like to see if they can establish themselves in my tanks too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wright
    Another pretty good dither fish is that smaller, but near-guppy, the Endler's Livebearer. [It does, however, eat eggs and babies, I suspect.]
    The pair of Endler from Nonn>KL>Jian Yang was gravid for a long time without throwing a single fry. It's now with a guppy friend to see if he has better luck with them [last I heard, they're still a childless couple]

    Wright, if you like the gertrudae as much as I do, email me your addy (Tyrone too) and I'll zap some your way... might as well, since these Blue-eyes are the only thing that's prolific at the moment.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Ronnie, that's a nice pic of P. gertrudae! The fry look quite small, so green
    water injections for the first few days upon hatching? The Aquabidder you
    mentioned sells rainbow eggs by simply bagging up the mop and shipping
    to the auction winner. Wow, large hatches indeed!

    Are you still interested in P. tennellus? I'll check on it after the rather large
    SAA order gets accomplished. :wink:

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    The gertrudae fry if I recall correctly are quite big. They can take small bbs from hatching and if that fails they do perfectly well on powder flake food.

    RonWill, I am very much inclined to take you up on your offer... but right now don't have anywhere to put them:-( Maybe later (unless I can get some F1 stuff from Australia). My contact is threatening to send me stuff...

    tt4n

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    Bill, green water works for most fry, so it won't hurt but paramecium would be better. Lacking which, micro organisms from an infusoria culture will speed up fry size to BBS.

    As for that 'Aquabidder' (or was it seller?), I don't recall him shipping mops but hell yes, if he does, I'm all game. IMHO, the tenellus looks prettier and it'll give me something to do while the SAA incubates.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Tyrone, the gertrudae fry aren't small or as tiny, compared to Scarlet badis or Spectrolebias semioccelatus. Any experienced breeder should breeze through them. I couldn't get a grip on the 3 SMO fry and lost them.

    Let me know when you're ready for 'em Blue-eyes (provided they still spawn as wildly) and do update us when you open the goodie box from down-under.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Correction Ron, I've never owned the gertrudaes before. turaco aka Gan did and he was the one who had a spawning from them.

    Just to add, there's still several female gertrudaes at Choong Sua, if your males are looking for extra mates. :wink:
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    Jian Yang, I need new glasses and going through the linked threads, yes, it was Gan... but where're the fry updates?

    I've no need for more gertrudaes... whatever I have now are in an orgasmic frenzy
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Wright & Bill,
    The gertrudae eggs were sent around Sept 8th via regular Air and wondered if you guys have received anything. Thinking back, I shouldn't have sent anything to the USA nearing 9/11.

    Anyway, this feedback arrived from Colorado... "The eggs arrived, they had hatched 100% on route. There were 6 fry altogether still alive, 1 in each of the 9/2/04 bags and 4 in the 9/6 bag. They are now in their little container with some Microworms, they are swimming strongly so I think they will survive".

    My response to that...
    > The Pseudomugil species have a much shorter incubation time than most
    > non-annual killies, which makes them perfect to test survival rate in
    > breather bags via _regular_ Air mail.
    >
    > Three things may resolve the high casualty rate that Lorraine
    > experienced. I believe they are;
    > First, I would suspect that the eggs will do better when freshly
    > collected instead of those that have started, or are in advanced
    > embryol development. Second, being a larger volume of water
    > and 3rd, via Express Air.
    >
    > A possible 4th issue may be temperature related. Juvenile and adult
    > fishes seem to travel better and more tolerant to temp fluctuations,
    > while in breathers, unlike newly hatch fry. Perhaps I should have used
    > a insulated polystyrene box instead.
    >
    > When an order for a dozen Ap. BIT eggs arrived, I was happily surprised
    > by a 'bubble' of 12 free-swimming fry! ;o) I have a feeling that I
    > over-packed on egg count per 'sachet', leading to insufficient oxygen
    > for the new fry... oh well, back to the drawing board.
    If you both experienced high fry-casualty, I'll revamp the packing and try again. Suggestions?
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWill
    Wright & Bill,
    The gertrudae eggs were sent around Sept 8th via regular Air and wondered if you guys have received anything. Thinking back, I shouldn't have sent anything to the USA nearing 9/11.

    Anyway, this feedback arrived from Colorado... "The eggs arrived, they had hatched 100% on route. There were 6 fry altogether still alive, 1 in each of the 9/2/04 bags and 4 in the 9/6 bag. They are now in their little container with some Microworms, they are swimming strongly so I think they will survive".

    My response to that...
    > The Pseudomugil species have a much shorter incubation time than most
    > non-annual killies, which makes them perfect to test survival rate in
    > breather bags via _regular_ Air mail.
    >
    > Three things may resolve the high casualty rate that Lorraine
    > experienced. I believe they are;
    > First, I would suspect that the eggs will do better when freshly
    > collected instead of those that have started, or are in advanced
    > embryol development. Second, being a larger volume of water
    > and 3rd, via Express Air.
    >
    > A possible 4th issue may be temperature related. Juvenile and adult
    > fishes seem to travel better and more tolerant to temp fluctuations,
    > while in breathers, unlike newly hatch fry. Perhaps I should have used
    > a insulated polystyrene box instead.
    >
    > When an order for a dozen Ap. BIT eggs arrived, I was happily surprised
    > by a 'bubble' of 12 free-swimming fry! ;o) I have a feeling that I
    > over-packed on egg count per 'sachet', leading to insufficient oxygen
    > for the new fry... oh well, back to the drawing board.
    If you both experienced high fry-casualty, I'll revamp the packing and try again. Suggestions?
    Mine obviously arrived yesterday, and I didn't think to check the mail box. We had our first freeze, last night, so any survivors probably were killed by that. I dunked and will check again in case any more hatch, but it doesn't look good. Both 9/6 and 9/10 bags had both dead hatched babies and unhatched eggs, most with fungus.

    They are warming up now and I'll give a squirt of green water, shortly. Maybe microworms later.

    I have our mail-delivery lady conditioned to leave anything marked "perishable" at the post office and call me for pick up. [She didn't notice the small fish-egg listing on the green sheet. I forgot to check yesterday's mail. ]

    There were quite a few fungused eggs, so those must have died earlier.

    I would suggest less eggs per pack, bigger water packets, a teeny bit of "Amquel" o/e (eggs produce ammonium, too) and a "PERISHABLE" stamp on the envelope.

    I would have checked the mailbox for sure if I had known when the eggs were shipped. It is about 1/4 mile down the road so usually only gets checked as I drive in or out.

    The plants look great, BTW. Did you have a name for this floater? It is new to me. Looks ideal for breeding fish like ANN (lots and lots of thick roots).

    Wright
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

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    Wright,
    How's the weather forecast for next week? Winter's coming kinda early isn't it?

    Let me check on the gertrudaes tomorrow and see if they're still at it. A polystyrene box might fair better this time with a bigger reserve of water. Still, 12 days via Air is a tad slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by whuntley
    I would suggest less eggs per pack, bigger water packets, a teeny bit of "Amquel" o/e (eggs produce ammonium, too) and a "PERISHABLE" stamp on the envelope
    It escapes me but what's 'o/e' again? Any suggestion what would be a favorable egg count per bag?

    The plants look great, BTW. Did you have a name for this floater? It is new to me. Looks ideal for breeding fish like ANN (lots and lots of thick roots).
    Yes and no. It's a Salvina sp. but can't say which one. This floater gets my vote for most plant-spawners.

    BTW, just saw Ivan's trail of damage passing through Alabama, on the night news. Hope Bill's holding ok there.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonWill
    Wright,
    How's the weather forecast for next week? Winter's coming kinda early isn't it?

    Let me check on the gertrudaes tomorrow and see if they're still at it. A polystyrene box might fair better this time with a bigger reserve of water. Still, 12 days via Air is a tad slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by whuntley
    I would suggest less eggs per pack, bigger water packets, a teeny bit of "Amquel" o/e (eggs produce ammonium, too) and a "PERISHABLE" stamp on the envelope
    It escapes me but what's 'o/e' again? Any suggestion what would be a favorable egg count per bag?

    The plants look great, BTW. Did you have a name for this floater? It is new to me. Looks ideal for breeding fish like ANN (lots and lots of thick roots).
    Yes and no. It's a Salvina sp. but can't say which one. This floater gets my vote for most plant-spawners.

    BTW, just saw Ivan's trail of damage passing through Alabama, on the night news. Hope Bill's holding ok there.
    We just had a sudden cold snap. Our weather is usually mild and warm until about the end of Oct. or early Nov. when the storms start dropping in from the gulf of Alaska. There are some excellent Pacific Satellite sites that can show our incoming weather very well. It should be warmer today and getting up to a bit hot by next week. LMK and I'll point out a site to watch.

    Actually I think it was 11 days, but that's still slow. Could have arrived here on Sat., which would have been more like 8-9 days. Still slow. I had no idea when they were to arrive.

    o/e is shorthand for "or equivalent." Sorry.

    For the tiny bags you used, 6-10 might work better. Bigger bags could hold more, but the first one to die starts to foul the water so more water is safer but more expensive. From the good condition of the bodies, I think I really froze these, though the water never actually got down to ice temps. The mailboxes are sheltered, but I saw ice along the nearby alfalfa field sprinklers when I came back from our hike this morning (about 10AM).

    I have to make a trip to Tijuana MX to get drugs and to see my mother and step-father, maybe next week, so please coordinate with me on expected arrival dates if you are going to try again. I might not be here. We will also have our fall DSAC trip to Ash Meadows to work on pupfish habitat on Oct. 7-9, so will be gone then, too. After that might be better.

    Thanks Ron and apologies for messing up and not checking my box, yesterday.

    Wright
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

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    Hi Ron,
    Home early from work, not feeling well, and no eggs in the mail yet. Will
    let you know when they arrive.

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    In my experience, Heterandria don't deliver one baby each day. They come in batches apparently, but far less uniform and smaller than those of, say, a guppy. It would be interesting to seperate a single female and observe and see what happens. The strain I keept(From Florida) laos has the red spot on the dorsal. I noticed a goo way to sex these fish when small is that at some point in time, the female will develop a black spot mirroring the dorsal spot(but without the red) on her anal fin. The young males, who's anal fins will soon become gonopodiums, lack the spots.

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    Ron, here's my views on getting higher survival rates when shipping eggs in breather bags:

    1) Like Wright has mentioned, a little squirt of a water conditioner like Amquel would help to reduce ammonia problems. There's something called Bag Buddies? or something like that. Supposed to reduce ammonia during shipping.

    2) Reduction in number of eggs per bag. The ones you sent in those bag sizes would be adequate for having about a dozen eggs per bag. More would result in the hatching fry competing for the available O2. Whether the bags are permeable enough to allow enough O2 to pass through is another question. Death rates would certainly be increased should a single fry or egg die in the packet during transit, especially in overcrowded situations. (Remember you sent fishes as one-per-bag in the shipment to Tom?)

    3) Insulation with a Heatpack or some other insulation materials may help to reduce effects of differing temperatures, especially when sending to colder regions. Placing the sachets/packets in a modified styrofoam box like the one you made for Tom would be a better bet since styro insulates and cushions impact at the same time.

    4) Time is of essence when sending mature eggs therefore a faster service like SpeedPost or FedEx would ensure that the fry that hatch enroute do not die during the long holding time in mail centres. (You know it all too well with regards to killie eggs)

    I don't have any experience in sending live eggs via post in breathers but garnered the information from your previous attempt at sending live fishes via post to Tom aka blinkytom in the UK. If I recall correctly they were sent by the fastest local mail service - SpeedPost - and the fishes survived the journey quite well. Was it 4 days from SG to UK?

    And talking about Tom, did he send anything back in return? If he did then that would have determined the shipping "window" for a successful live delivery back and forth, in this case from Asia to Europe and back again.

    Normal air mail to the States and Europe takes about 10-12 days as I've found out previously. Registered mail may take even longer. Worst part is when we send out the mail close to the weekends. The package will sit in the holding centres for the weekends until the next available flight comes up and the mail is sent out. Thats why some people mail the eggs on a Monday to ensure that it doesn't sit in holding centres for too long, especially over weekends.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

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    As expensive as Fedex is, I don't expect Ronnie to send them that way. I
    may have to wait till Thailand for these. If Wright got his eggs Monday, I
    may not get these till Thursday, the 23rd. We've been experiencing temps
    down to 48 degrees in the morning (what it is right now) but rises to the
    low 80s every day. I don't hold much hope for the eggs But want to
    thank Ronnie for trying!

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    A little trick I learnt from Mach Fukada but forgot about... shipping the eggs in 1/2 strength sea water will delay development in most Pseaudomugil. Mach also sends the eggs attached to the threads they were laid on in breathing bags.

    tt4n

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    Wright & Bill, I learn by trying hence no need for thanks. As far as I'm concerned, goodwill is reciprocal.

    Bill's package was in the mail with one to Colorado and the other to Pennsylvania.

    Wright's package was sent a day or two later. I don't know how USPS route their mail but it first arrived at Colorado and then, Bishop CA. Bill and the chap at PA have yet to receive theirs

    Since winter isn't 'due', I wasn't prepared for such temperature fluctuations (48~80ºF = 8.9~26ºC ) and insulation took a back seat (I should have used the polyfoam Hikari box).

    For those who are in the dark, Bill's eggs were packed and protected with a audio cassette case, similar to the package that went to Colorado.


    Wright's eggs were in film canisters with part of the lid snipped off for the eggs/fry to breathe.
    More pics here.

    Tyrone, what is the SG for 1/2 strength seawater? I'll try that in a 2nd shipment and thanks for sharing the tip.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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