Spot Algae / BBA Problem

[stormhawk]

I'm beginning to have a slight problem with this two types of algae. Otos won't touch them, the fish won't nibble at them, even the shrimp don't like them. I need some suggestions. If I recall correctly, Nerite snails and those Horned Snails will feed on spot algae will they not? What about other snails? I prefer to deal with them using a biological agent like snails rather than tweaking with ferts.

Haven't measured the water parameters but the pH in the tank is about 6.0 - 6.4. Tank substrate is a mix of JBL base fert and ADA Amazonia Aquasoil. Some plants in certain areas have started to die off, especially a bunch of Vallisneria at the left hand corner. Odd thing is a bunch of Vallisneria in the centre of the tank at the back end is doing rather well. Is this a base fert deficiency? Some of my dwarf sagittaria, crypt wendtii are not doing very well. So are my frogbits. I have a feeling that the nitrate levels are on the high side. Time to clean up my canister filter.

I need some help here on suggestions on how to rectify my very sudden and odd plant deaths. Root monsters? Fert sticks? Anything. [-o<

More tank details:

Tank size : 3ft x 1.5 x 1.25 (very odd dimensions indeed..)
Filtration : Eheim 2026 x 1
Lighting : 2 x 36W PL

Bioload : 30 x Corydoras (different sizes, largest at 4.5cm), 5 x Otocinclus (mix of species), 1 x Parotocinclus spilosoma, 30+ Boraras (mix of species), 3 x Rasboroides vaterifloris, 1 x Brachygobius xanthomelas, 1 x Indostomus paradoxus, 4 x Malayan Shrimp

Plant life : Sagittaria subulata, Echinodorus tenellus, Echinodorus "Rubin", Vallisneria spiralis, Vallisneria americana (natans), Crypt. wendtii "Green", Crypt. wendtii "Brown", Crypt. usteriana, Crypt. nurii, Crypt. balansae, Hygrophila difformis, Microsorium pteropus, M. pteropus "Narrow Leaf", M. pteropus "Broad Leaf", Limnobium laevigatum, SG Moss, Java Moss.

[PeterGwee]

How big is your tank? CO2 enriched? KH? Dosing regime?

BBA = poor/inconsistent levels of CO2 (keeping it within 25-35ppm throughout the entire photoperiod will stop it from growing and all that is left is trimming.)

Spot algae = Low PO4/ Low CO2

Seems like multiple issues going on in your tank. Work on getting the CO2 right first before going onto the nutrients. ADA aquasoil tends to "eat away" the KH during the first couple of weeks or months hence you would need to add some KH to buffer its peat effect.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[stormhawk]

Thanks Peter, sorry I just added in the tank details plus inhabitants and plant life.

Would the addition of baking soda help in buffering the KH from the effects of the Aquasoil? The Aquasoil is roughly 2 years old now. I think the JBL base fert may be close to depletion.

Currently diffusing CO2 into the tank at 1 bps via the Nutrafin flipper. Switching to the small powerhead driven CO2 reactor.

About the ppm bit I don't quite understand. At what bps should I be at as per my tank dimension to attain the ppm levels you mentioned?

Sorry if I sound like a noob but planted tanks isn't my cuppa tea.

[stormhawk]

CO2 enriched = Yes
KH = I'm not sure, don't have a test kit on hand.
Fert. regime = About 1 ml of Seachem Flourish during weekly water changes.

I usually top-up the evaporated water every now and then. Would it be advisable to clean up my filter now? Or leave it as it is. Haven't cleaned out the gunk in there for almost 4 mths?

[PeterGwee]

I prefer to deal with them using a biological agent like snails rather than tweaking with ferts.

Nutrients are fine with you? Critter control for algae issues for a CO2 enriched tank will not work well due to its fast growth rate. Working on the plant health and killing off the algae is a better solution.

Since the substrate is about 2 years already, the peat effect should have worn off. Add baking soda to bring the KH up to 3 and maintain it at that level week in week out. For the CO2 level, about 1.5-2bps is a rough estimate but measure the pH at the start and end of the photoperiod to make sure. Keep the pH within 6.4-6.5 for a KH of 3 and no more than 6.5. Until you get this CO2 right, the nutrients will not work its magic at all.

For your tank, I will suggest adding this only after you get the CO2 right.
1)Prune and trim off any form of algae
2)Clean filter if flow rate drops (poor circulation and etc.)
3)Do a large 50% weekly water change
4)Slightly more than 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2x a week
5)1/16 teaspoon of KH2PO4 2x a week
6)8ml of flourish 2x a week
Repeat the routine but main key is still the CO2. Check and recheck it for a couple of days to make sure the CO2 delivery rate is consistent.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[stormhawk]

Thanks Peter, I think I'll fix the CO2 diffusion problem first. Will report back if I get any odd results. I'll measure the pH before and after I begin the adjustments, most probably tomorrow afternoon after I rig up the powerhead-diffuser later tonight. Need to top up water as well.

[FC]

Jian Yang,

Just my 2 cents. I think
1) the CO2 is likely to be insufficient and you may have high nitrate too.
2) Your substrate may be filled with too much mulm. The cory constantly disturbing the gravel aggrevate the problem.
3) Your fish load is too high for the setup which has insufficient light/CO2 to drive the plants

I would suggest the following tank "re-set":
1) Remove all plants
2) Clean the glass wall
3) Remove filter
4) Vacuum the gravel till you left with 50% of water
5) Refill water till full and vacuum again to 50%
6) Use the waste water to clean the filter medium, change the white filter pad. Add half fistful of coral chips (CaCO3) in the lower tray. Do not use baking soda
7) add some fresh gravel if it is less than 2 inches thick, till you reach 3 inches. refill tank water, fit back filter and run it
treat affected plants with chlorinated water (1:20) for 2 minutes. discard badly affected ones and weak plants (don't waste time reviving them).
9) re-plant, add some new fast&easy growers
10) reduce cory population
12) add 6 ramhorn snails, get from Ronnie?
13) blackout the tank for 2~3 days with no CO2 and no feedings
14) change 50% water
15) get the CO2 running well. For your setup, add 5ppm KNO3, 1ppm PO4, traces, 2ppm Mg, once a week. Get from me (FOC)?
16) Light on 6 hrs, increase gradually over 2 weeks to 8 hrs.

If needed, you may add the cheap and good all-rounder Horti tab (not stick) which is green in colour and look like buttons. Place it deep under the gravel (at least 1.5 inch under).

Have fun.

[hwchoy]

Peter, will overdose of CO2 encourage BBA since you mentioned a specific concentration range.

[PeterGwee]

Peter, will overdose of CO2 encourage BBA since you mentioned a specific concentration range.

No, it won't but might harm your critters. Readings are taken at a specific time and may seem good but you need to look at it over a couple of days or even a week when the photoperiod starts and when it ends to make sure. Do note that many things can affect pH and KH readings as well which is why the estimative index method is good. It takes care of the nutrients portion and ensures that the plants are not nutrient deficient in anyway which then puts all the emphasis on the CO2. (The light should be good..most add way too much.) If something is not looking right in the tank and you are dosing the estimative index method way, you need to look at the CO2 critically. Even when the readings seems good throughout and you are getting algae (unless you have too many critters for a small tank...you get more than BBA..namely staghorn, green water and etc.), you should add more CO2 slowly and incremently till you get nice growth (pearling) with no signs of fish stress.

When you increase the CO2 rate incremently, wait for a day or two to make sure and monitor the tank closely (You need to make sure that your nutrients are good though or else you would and might kill your critters.). You would also need to make sure that your CO2 rate is constant once set and that you do not do CO2 24/7 or else you would have issues. Tom Barr recommended the 20-30ppm range as it is a safe range for critters and includes some possible errors from readings.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[hwchoy]

that's the strange part. I am getting strong pearling from blyxa (very thick) and hairgrass (sparse new planting) and yet fishes are gasping when I pump up the CO2. Light is very high at 108W for 23 gallons.

I do believe I have base fert leaching problem as this is an old substrate which was drained and new gravel laid over the top. however the muddy water seeped through the new gravel.

[PeterGwee]

that's the strange part. I am getting strong pearling from blyxa (very thick) and hairgrass (sparse new planting) and yet fishes are gasping when I pump up the CO2. Light is very high at 108W for 23 gallons.

Strange? Why? Do you mean you still have BBA in that tank? Prune away all the BBA you have in that tank. Work on the nutrients and CO2. Check and recheck for consistent high CO2 levels. Not just at one point but good throughout the week. At that amount of light, a slight drop will definitely cause issues real quick. As for why the critters are gasping, it might be a case of real high CO2 or lack of circulation. Does the gasping occur during the photoperiod? Do you have some slight surface movement? Do you do CO2 24/7? Consistent high CO2 in the range of 20-30ppm will solve BBA issues. If your CO2 moves around from high to low or vice versa, you will get BBA. Another way to get round that issue is to lower the light levels to 1.5-2wpg. You can get away with lower CO2 levels without much issues as demands are lesser at low light but at 20-30ppm, low light tanks do superb. When adding CO2, do error on the high side rather than the low side. 30ppm is definitely better than 20ppm due to potential errors in measurements.

I do believe I have base fert leaching problem as this is an old substrate which was drained and new gravel laid over the top. however the muddy water seeped through the new gravel.

Do a large water change and it will not be an issue unless you add jobe sticks to the substrate. Its the ammonia or urea that is causing algae mayhems..not NO3 (inorganic dosing). Critters produce ammonia first so if you have way too much and it exceeds plant uptake threshold and bacteria conversion rate, then you will get algae. Its not from KNO3 dosage as far as I have read and seen. Most come from CO2 issues though. Too little is the case unless the critters act weird or funny, more causes no harm.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[hwchoy]

I would assume that when plants pearl the water would be pretty much saturated with O2. CO2 injection is by solenoid cylinder through diffuser (cheap one but still get small bubbles) during photoperiod (10hrs), now about 4bps.

Fishes gasp more when I turn off the filter. Surface turbulence is minor (no splashing). Previously the tank is just one thick lawn of HG and yet the much heavier bioload at that time never gasped.

Water change is half (12 gallons) per week, and also siphoning of the BBA which is on the HG (very sparse still) and gravel.

Even though some fishes gasp, may others do fine (like danio and dario) and even yamatoes are not suffering.

I don't measure CO2 concentration, just pump and watch the fish. Tried dosing MasterGrowth (half-dose) but attracted instant BBA breakout. Now no fertilisation at all for the last 3 weeks. Initially blyxa had leaf melting problem but now seem to be OK. Blyxa aubertii leaves are 1½ft high.

maybe I'll try switching off half the wattage and keeping the CO2.

[elmike]

...and also siphoning of the BBA which is on the HG (very sparse still) and gravel.

hwchoy
This is the first time I’ve heard that BBA can be siphoned off. Sounds like a different kind of BBA? This is the kind I’m dealing with my way right now...

Another way to get round that issue is to lower the light levels to 1.5-2wpg. You can get away with lower CO2 levels without much issues as demands are lesser at low light but at 20-30ppm, low light tanks do superb.

Peter

Are you saying that existing BBA growth will recede - and to what extent? - if lighting is reduced significantly? I’ve resorted to switching on only the backlight (30 watts) since this past Sun. The plan is keep the front 2 light tubes off until Thursday. The lighting works out to be 0.5 W/ gallon. After they've been weakened, I plan to retrieve the bogwood and have the BBA either torched with a heat gun, or apply my tried and tested method of pouring a pot of boiling water over it. I've not got around to doing that yet simply because I couldn't find the time (I expect the whole process will require a 4-5 hr bloc, including routine maintainence).

I sent my CO2 cylinder for top on Sun and was told it should be ready for collection by Wed, at the latest.

I’m not sure how long the plants can hold out with such a dim lighting without being adversely affected. Can anyone comment?

[elmike]

oops
Deleted - duplicate post

There seems to be a technical glitch here. You'd see an error message when you click submit, but yet your message would've gone through. So don't resubmit.

[PeterGwee]

I would assume that when plants pearl the water would be pretty much saturated with O2. CO2 injection is by solenoid cylinder through diffuser (cheap one but still get small bubbles) during photoperiod (10hrs), now about 4bps.

Yes, pearling pretty much shows that the water column is pretty saturated with O2 but that does not tell you much about the consistency of the CO2 rate does it? It can be bad for 3-4 hours in the early parts of the photoperiod and good in the later parts due to a slower response time. Diffuser tends to clog easily and does not distribute CO2 around the tank unless you place it near the outflow of your filter (clogging affects efficiency and that in turn affects CO2 levels.).

Fishes gasp more when I turn off the filter. Surface turbulence is minor (no splashing). Previously the tank is just one thick lawn of HG and yet the much heavier bioload at that time never gasped.

Getting good circulation going in the tank...clean the filter if the flowrate drops. Some folks go to the extend of limiting circulation in order to keep the extra CO2 in. Bad idea in my honest opinion. Good circulation helps bring CO2 and nutrients to the plant leaves and if you limit that, the CO2 and nutrients around the plant leaves are going to get depleted real quick. Work on the circulation part and have some surface movement. Not a lot and not too little either (you will loose some CO2 but that is fine if your plant growth go south and does not contribute much O2. Better to error on the side of the critters than plants in this case.)

I don't measure CO2 concentration, just pump and watch the fish. Tried dosing MasterGrowth (half-dose) but attracted instant BBA breakout. Now no fertilisation at all for the last 3 weeks. Initially blyxa had leaf melting problem but now seem to be OK. Blyxa aubertii leaves are 1½ft high.

maybe I'll try switching off half the wattage and keeping the CO2.

TMG does not induce BBA.. It is the consistency of your CO2 supply which is in doubt or circulation issue. No dosing is bad and does not limit algae for your info. Give the plants what they need to grow and kill off the algae by trimming or blackout (blackout does not work on BBA). TMG is just traces with a bit of K. You would need to add KNO3 and KH2PO4 for your very high light tank in a CO2 enriched environment.

Yes, less light is better as long as it is well spread out. Less dependence on inorganic nutrient dosing and you can get away with 15-20ppm of CO2 but try to error towards 30ppm and you will never be limited.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[PeterGwee]

Peter

Are you saying that existing BBA growth will recede - and to what extent? - if lighting is reduced significantly? I’ve resorted to switching on only the backlight (30 watts) since this past Sun. The plan is keep the front 2 light tubes off until Thursday. The lighting works out to be 0.5 W/ gallon. After they've been weakened, I plan to retrieve the bogwood and have the BBA either torched with a heat gun, or apply my tried and tested method of pouring a pot of boiling water over it. I've not got around to doing that yet simply because I couldn't find the time (I expect the whole process will require a 4-5 hr bloc, including routine maintainence).

I sent my CO2 cylinder for top on Sun and was told it should be ready for collection by Wed, at the latest.
I’m not sure how long the plants can hold out with such a dim lighting without being adversely affected. Can anyone comment?

Its hard to tell if the BBA would slow down or stop growing if you drop the light significantly but it might be possible as low light places less demand on the CO2/nutrients and growth rate slows down significantly for both plants and algae.

Keep the lower light or off it if necessary till the CO2 tank returns. Some plants will grow leggy with less light but that can be corrected with trimming later on.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[elmike]

Its hard to tell if the BBA would slow down or stop growing if you drop the light significantly but it might be possible as low light places less demand on the CO2/nutrients and growth rate slows down significantly for both plants and algae.

Peter
I can't but agree with you. My 2 ft tank with 1.8W/ gallon and sitting at the balcony never once had BBA, but only blue-green and spot algae. This tank had no base fertiliser. I also do not dose with liquid fertiliser.

Previously, BBA growth in my 4 ft was slow and tolerable. A bad onslaught started soon after I boosted fertiliser level (roots monsters and a mid-week dose) to feed my lotus.

Keep the lower light or off it if necessary till the CO2 tank returns. Some plants will grow leggy with less light but that can be corrected with trimming later on.

You mentioned total blackout. Any idea how long can plants hold out under such condition without permenant systemic damage??

[PeterGwee]

You mentioned total blackout. Any idea how long can plants hold out under such condition without permenant systemic damage??

A max of 5-6 days I guess...it might weaken the plant somehow but not kill it though. Remember, it has ambient light as well..not total blackout.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[PeterGwee]

Jianyang, how is the tank doing? Any new BBA growth?

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[stormhawk]

Hi Peter, I only rigged up the powerhead+reactor to rectify the CO2 diffusion problem. So far I've not an increase in BBA levels. I'll monitor the tank closely over the next few days.

Will be doing the KNO3 dosing and Seachem Flourish dosing over the weekend once I get my hands on the KNO3.

Will also be cleaning out the filter tomorrow after I get some new filter pads from the LFS.

Scraping the leftover BBA will be done over the weekend as well.

I'll report back when I get some good response from the plants that aren't doing so well. :wink: