Another moss

[Ibn]

Let me know if this looks familiar to anyone.

Emerged growth.



Submerged growth.



The submerged growth for the moss is large (at least twice the size of the emerged growth). It's another native of California and comes from frigid waters. Water where it came from is rather still, but is bone chilling cold. Here's a shot of where it came from (it's from the spring which sits above this).

[CO2]

The emerged growth looks similar to a moss I found in Northern California near Mt Shasta:



That moss didn't survive submersed for me, hopefully you have better luck![/img]

[RonWill]

Eric,
I'm not much of a moss person but the 3rd pic of the mini waterfall has an etheral feel to it and I'd like to request for a 800x600 pixel image for my desktop, with your blessings, of course.

Many thanks.

BTW, how cold is "bone chilling frigid water"?

[timebomb]

Eric,

The waterfall looks absolutely beautiful. The moss doesn't look bad either.

I'm not going to hazard a guess. When will you send some over?

Loh K L

[Ibn]

That moss looks pretty close to it, Craig. Hopefully I'll have some luck with it.

Ron, I'll resize it at that size and send it you a link to it later on today.

Loh, just need an address that I can send it to you.

[timebomb]

Hi, folks,

Eric aka Ibn sent 2 mosses which arrived last week. One is already shown here in this thread. The waterfall (also shown) where it was collected from looks absolutely beautiful. The other moss was collected from a stream. I'm not sure if the stream is near the waterfall but Eric sent this picture:


Here's a picture (also sent by Eric) of the 2nd moss:


Both mosses, according to Eric, come from Yosemite NP in California, USA. Unfortunately, when they arrived, both mosses have turned brown. Here's what they looked like when I received them:
Picture 1


Picture 2


I brought the mosses to the professor yesterday evening. Fortunately for us, the professor does not need the mosses to be alive before he can identify them. He's just as okay with dead ones. What is important to him though, is the place of origin.

The first moss (Picture 1) is Kindbergia oregana or Eyrhynchium oreganum or Stokesiella oregana. Don't get confused by the 3 names. It's not like the professor is unsure of the identify of this moss. He's pretty sure but the moss is known by different names. It depends which publication one refers to. The last 2 names are used in older moss books.

The 2nd moss (Picture 2) is Racomitrium aciculare. It has somewhat unusual cells, in that they look like a jigsaw puzzle. I took a picture of the cells through the microscope and this is what it looks like:


In the professor's moss book, this is the drawing of the cells:


The professor said both mosses are common to California. But what Eric should take note of is that the professor also said the 2nd moss (Racomitrium aciculare) is a true aquatic moss. According to him, it's a creeping moss, in that it clings to rocks and stones. However, it doesn't branch like the other aquarium mosses we know. Nevertheless, if it's an aquatic moss, Eric shouldn't have problems growing it in his fish tank. All it needs is very cold water.

Loh K L

[Ibn]

Wow. Thanks, Loh and the professor for ID'ing both species.

The stream where that second moss came from is from a different part of the NP, but it's in the same park. It's about a 20 minute drive from the waterfall to that stream.

Sorry about the condition that they arrived in. The first moss, I moved the moss to submerged conditions and they started browning. Also, I am getting some results in my 90 gallon tank with parts of the submerged portions. They had turned brown in another tank that I was keeping it in (1.5 gallon tank with 18W of CF lighting) so I moved it over to the larger tank. Once in there, I left it at the surface where it's getting a lot of light and current (about 12" away from the return of an Eheim 2128 and 12" under 500W of lighting). Seems to be doing better and it's keeping its green coloration. Does the professor think that this moss can be grown submerged? I thought this one would have a better chance of doing so since there was both emersed and submerged forms where I collected it from.

In regards to the second moss, how low of a temperature do you think it will require? Where it's collected, the water was frigid (would probably have frozen if there was no water movement; bone clenching cold).

[RonWill]

In regards to the second moss, how low of a temperature do you think it will require? Where it's collected, the water was frigid (would probably have frozen if there was no water movement; bone clenching cold).

Eric,
May I suggest you carry an analog thermometer (mercury or alcohol) when out on moss-hunting trips. Only you can tell us how cold is 'frigid'. From there, it's only guessing, as to how high the moss can tolerate when cultivated indoors.

Nice pic of the habitat (again in long-exposure mode) even though the surrounding fauna is chilled brown

[keehoe]

Thats right. I was wondering if they would survive in my chiller tank. (22C)

Yah Ron, How is the ZII baby doing? They should be breedable size now knowing your baby sitting skill.

[timebomb]

Eric,

The professor wasn't sure of the identity of the first moss (Kindbergia oregana) when I was in his lab. He informed me of the name (through email) one day later. Therefore, I didn't have the opportunity to ask him if the moss is terrestrial or aquatic. Within the patch that you sent, there were 2 strands of a moss that looks completely different. I foolishly thought before I brought the moss to the lab, that it was another moss mixed up with the main bunch. So I left the 2 strands at home. I didn't want to confuse the professor. It was only later when I re-read your private message again, that I found out the 2 strands were supposed to be the submerged form. Sorry. I was careless.

But then again, there's a fair chance that the 2 strands could really be a different moss. I thought they were Fontinalis antipyretica (Willow Moss) when I saw them. You sure they are the same, Eric? The 2 strands have also turned brown but they are still in one of my tanks.

As for the 2nd moss (Racomitrium aciculare), the professor didn't specify a temperature. He only said "very cold". As Ronnie had suggested, a good way to find out is to bring a thermometer to the stream.

By the way, now that we know Racomitrium aciculare is an aquatic moss, it shouldn't have turned brown when it reached me. I suspect it could be due to the way you packed the mosses when you sent them. You wrapped them with paper and it was quite wet when it arrived. With aquatic plants, water is the element that kills them when they are in transit. Have you received the moss I sent? I don't wrap mosses with wet paper when I send them to hobbyists in other countries. In fact, I make sure they are pretty dry. The plastic bag has to be completely air-tight though. You were using ziplock bags which aren't as air-tight as plastic bags sealed with a lighter. Take a closer look at the plastic bag and how I packed the moss when it reaches you. Okay?

Loh K L

[Ibn]

In regards to the second moss, how low of a temperature do you think it will require? Where it's collected, the water was frigid (would probably have frozen if there was no water movement; bone clenching cold).

Eric,
May I suggest you carry an analog thermometer (mercury or alcohol) when out on moss-hunting trips. Only you can tell us how cold is 'frigid'. From there, it's only guessing, as to how high the moss can tolerate when cultivated indoors.

Nice pic of the habitat (again in long-exposure mode) even though the surrounding fauna is chilled brown

Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't planning on bringing anything home with me so this didn't even come to mind. I was there for photography reasons versus moss collecting.

Have any suggestions for a good travel thermometer for this purpose? My guess on water temperature would be around 40F.

[Ibn]

Eric,

The professor wasn't sure of the identity of the first moss (Kindbergia oregana) when I was in his lab. He informed me of the name (through email) one day later. Therefore, I didn't have the opportunity to ask him if the moss is terrestrial or aquatic. Within the patch that you sent, there were 2 strands of a moss that looks completely different. I foolishly thought before I brought the moss to the lab, that it was another moss mixed up with the main bunch. So I left the 2 strands at home. I didn't want to confuse the professor. It was only later when I re-read your private message again, that I found out the 2 strands were supposed to be the submerged form. Sorry. I was careless.

But then again, there's a fair chance that the 2 strands could really be a different moss. I thought they were Fontinalis antipyretica (Willow Moss) when I saw them. You sure they are the same, Eric? The 2 strands have also turned brown but they are still in one of my tanks.

As for the 2nd moss (Racomitrium aciculare), the professor didn't specify a temperature. He only said "very cold". As Ronnie had suggested, a good way to find out is to bring a thermometer to the stream.

By the way, now that we know Racomitrium aciculare is an aquatic moss, it shouldn't have turned brown when it reached me. I suspect it could be due to the way you packed the mosses when you sent them. You wrapped them with paper and it was quite wet when it arrived. With aquatic plants, water is the element that kills them when they are in transit. Have you received the moss I sent? I don't wrap mosses with wet paper when I send them to hobbyists in other countries. In fact, I make sure they are pretty dry. The plastic bag has to be completely air-tight though. You were using ziplock bags which aren't as air-tight as plastic bags sealed with a lighter. Take a closer look at the plastic bag and how I packed the moss when it reaches you. Okay?

Loh K L

Loh, as far as I can tell, those two strands and the emerged growth are the same moss. They were connected on the rocks where they were collected and I pulled both of them up at the same time.

Good info on the shipment of moss. Yes, I did receive the moss that you sent me (thanks BTW!). So you just simply used a lighter to close those bags up? They were browning when I got them out the door so I don't know if it'll help, but I'll definitely remember to ship them drier next time using your method.

[RonWill]

Have any suggestions for a good travel thermometer for this purpose? My guess on water temperature would be around 40F.

duh... 40º F works out to approx 4º C and seriously doubt you'll find me out of bed (more likely tucked under an electric blanket )

Eric, I don't have any good recommendations but since we're talking about 'ball-park' figures (not strict accuracy) and compact size to slip into a wallet, I was thinking of those forehead thermo-strips. Took a look at one from my first aid box and realize that the readable range was too high and narrow for your purpose, ie. 35~40ºC (95~104ºF).

Alternatively, there are those electronic in-ear thermometers that record and reset pretty quickly. Did a search in eBay for "digital thermometer" and found a few (fairly cheap too!)
PhysioLogic-Accuflex Readable range not stated.

But this Digital Infrared Thermometer & Laser Electronic LCD looks interestingly enough, with a temperature range: -18 to 280ºC (0º to 536ºF)... WOW

Can't help much with the mosses though, not my 'turf' (pun intended )

[timebomb]

Loh, as far as I can tell, those two strands and the emerged growth are the same moss. They were connected on the rocks where they were collected and I pulled both of them up at the same time.

Eric, here's a picture of the 2 strands of mosses that came together with the main bunch:



They have turned brown and some leaves have fallen off but I'm sure you will agree they look very different from Kindbergia oregana (picture 1 in this thread). You assumed they were the same because they were all growing together in a bunch on some rocks. But there's a high possibility they are different species of mosses. I've seen patches of mosses where there are sometimes 3 to 4 different species all entangled within the same patch.

I would ask you to examine the K. oregana in your tank closely. If you have both the emersed and submersed forms, please check if the emersed fronds are attached to the submersed ones. In other words, are they growing from the same stems? If they are, it would mean they are the same species. If they are only entangled together and not attached to each other, it would mean they are different species.

Loh K L