Netting trip to FRIM.

[itssg]

sorry. repeat post.

[kimco]

Hey, come on guys, this thread is sounding too much like some of the other forums that I frequented and is now staying away from, precisely because of this attitudes.

Lets keep it clean, friendly, Singlish/Maglish and sms free and stay to the topic at hand and not spoil all the fun................... PLEASE!!!!!!!

Another thing, do keep childish attitudes at home and not display them for the whole world to see.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

KG

[ayahpin2]

ok ok... sorry, lar brother. english is not used to. but dont you think right? i just proving my point people now just pretend pretend only. no need to pretend lar. i malaysian too, is just the kulture like that. you think you can escape but you can't. so i admit myself. i try to be good but is just so limit one malaysian can be so pure and say other doing bad. i think is bullshit.

[RRG]

This is getting out of control. PLEASE before anyone make their first post, read the rules of this forum. We have the rules for a reason and this is what happen if we don't follow them. And please refrain from using vulgar words, it's quite tasteless.

[budak]

Simplistic 'either or' views are not helpful in this issue. I am concerned about the risk of overharvesting from nature (although I don't think most of our aquatic plants, except for hydrilla, some crypts and anubias and those rarer Amazonian species, come directly from the wild - the vast majority appear to originate from farmed populations). At the same time, treating nature as supremely inviolable isn't quite an ideal situation either, especially when one compares the case whereby people know the live value and can exploit (in hopefully a modest and sustainable way) the species in an ecosystem, compared to the clearing of a swamp or jungle for other 'development' purposes simply because no alternate means of deriving value or utility from that habitat is possible.

On a more practical note, if I am not wrong, Malaysia's park/forestry system designates certain areas as National Parks (e.g. Endau Rompin, Taman Negara, Tasik Bera....), while other patches are protected as "forest reserves". Apart from it being legally questionable (despite bo-chup guards) I would think it's right to respect the creatures and plants living in these areas of high biodiversity concentrations, and enjoy them where they are, taking nothing but photos. Correct me if I am wrong, but outside the reserves and parks, there isn't any specific rule saying you can't catch fish or pick up plants/rocks. And despite all the concretising of West Malaysia, there ARE still a good number of locales where interesting and rich fauna/flora can be seen, and collected. Ending here, I leave it to the individual to decide if his or her pratice is sustainable. But it is disingenuous to say that just because everybody does it, there's no point in voicing out against unthinking collection. One cannot abdicate individual responsibility by citing collective sentiments.

Tolong lah kawan-kawan. Bukan semua peminat di sini faham lingo Bahasa. Dan janganlah lupa bersopan. [i/]

[timebomb]

Well, what do you know? - our very first flame war

Okay, fellas, I have to ask all of you to back off a little. State your opinions but please try to be polite. I don't know Dom very well but I met him when I was in Malaysia. He's crazy over aquatic plants, that's for sure but I don't believe he's the type who will go around plundering the nature reserves. But Budak and Choy were right to voice their concerns as all of us should help to protect what's left in this little planet we call home. Around these parts, many people won't think twice about taking plants and fishes from nature. That's the culture but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to change it. I'm realistic so I know it's useless to tell people not to take anything from nature. The temptation is too great, especially when one comes across a plant or a fish that isn't available in the fish shops. So I would say, if you have to take, take only what you can't find in the fish shops and take as little as possible. Whatever you do, do not plunder.

As for those who post in Singlish, Maglish or sms short forms, I have to remind you that isn't allowed here. If you persist in using such language, you run the risk of being the first ever forum user to get kicked out of this forum.

In recent weeks, many Malaysians have joined in the discussions here. We welcome their input but please understand that this is an international-based forum. Here we have hobbyists who come from many different countries. We want all of you to stay and have a good time but that can only come about if you write in a language everyone can understand. We also hope that you will use a real name in your posts. The reasons, as you can see from what's happening to this thread, are obvious. Anonymous posters tend to shoot off their mouths without thinking, thereby creating flame wars.

Personally, I've always believed that if there's something you want to say on the internet, you should be brave enough to put down your name. If you don't dare do that, then I would strongly suggest you don't post at all.

Loh K L

[keehoe]

Hey guys, cool it wouldn't you. First of all, let me say a few word as Malaysian.

Beside having different culture, Malaysia/ Singapore faces different challenges when it comes to natural reserve. Commercial logging is clearing away heckers of jungle land every year and whatever Dominic took is just a tips of an iceberg.

In Malaysia, even if everyone go jungle bring back a big piece of moss of the size of their own head, has little impact on the overall jungle development. This is completely different case in big city like Singapore.
Try publish in newspaper that that 1kg of natural moss worth one dollar and you will see the whole bukit timah jungle being over turn the next day.

I don't think the amount of plants taken is really an issue here but the intention. I think it is perfectly OK if those are not meant to be for commercial use. As long as it is for hobby, general interest or conservation purpose and you are not touching whatever listed as "endangered species", it is ok. In Malaysia, the land is too big for government to effectively preserve all the natural floral and fauna in the forest. The only way to make sure the any plant survive is to take it first before it fall into the wrong hand.

I have been tracking source of killie fish lately. Realise a lot of the species besides being "pure", it also does not comes with any code. One of the reason my supplier told me is: Researcher pay collector to go into the jungle/ river whatever to find the species that they want and the collector never bother document down the details.

[shortman]

Guys/Gals,

It has been a very long time since I last login here due to lots of work and commitment.

Everyone have his/her rights to speak up what he/she think but please make sure it is to share and constructive.

It is alright to take from the mother nature but one must consider to return back to mother nature.

Cheers

[bettawalk]

Take they reduce and those you took perish is a bad thing , but if you take and you manage them well , thats ok .

Personaly , emm was that leagal ?

[keehoe]

[shortman remove]Make no sense here.

[aphy]

Thank you Choy, Budak, Loh, Ayahpin and Dom for your comments. Please understand that this was merely my opinion as Budak and Loh had also pointed out that overharvesting will cause an extinction in nature.

There's no need to get sensitive over this as everyone is entitled to their opinions. We are not trying to be pretentious or holier than thou attitude. They are well aware that littering is also not permitted in the reserve area but they still do it. Does this mean that it's acceptable? Similar point applies here.
I've not heard of the Malaysian Aquatic Plants Association, is it a new setup?

Yes temptation can be great I agree, but if we can't take a leash on our greed who will?

And just for the records, I wasn't hiding behind a nickname. Just forgot to sign off.

CY LIM

[itssg]

Hi CY Lim, yes. I just formed it last year. There are over hundred members in my list. Around 50+ of them are acive members. The rest of them don't really into this cyber forum. It is not yet an official registered club.

I am a hobbyst. I am crazy into plants or aquatic plants. I started to have my first plant when I was just 5 years old. My mom teaching me a lot about the flowers and other plants. Sometime, i will just take the flowers or plants beside the road. For what?? Of couse I wanna keep it and growing it. But I won't take all of them. Just 1 or 2 is enough. But if there is just only 1 or 2. Then i will let it be. Won't spoil the beauty of nature.

Like KL Loh said, I just can't control myself not to take. I believe you guys will take some if you found you are surrounding my mosses and other aquatic plants. And honestly, there are very exotic to me. Especially the mosses. I am not taking back a whole tree or rock. Just 1/3 size of my thumb. I am not taking it to sell to anyone. I am not making any profit from it. Just for my own research and hope to share with all of you guys in here.

Anyway, I will go there again with official permit. I will take the pictures, post in here and send some samples to Loh again. Is that fine with you guys?

I believe Loh is very excited now. Hahaha...Due to my post and caused a war. Take it easy guys. It is great to know ayah pin and bettawalk those from Malaysia in here.

Ok ok...peace. No war! Please comments and verify the mosses and plants in the pictures. Loh, do you have any idea or have you saw the mosses in my pictures before?

[timebomb]

Loh, do you have any idea or have you saw the mosses in my pictures before?

It's kind of hard to tell from pics but I believe some of the mosses you saw are quite common in Singapore too. Dom, I would suggest that you be a bit more selective when you go hunting for mosses. There's little point in taking the terrestrial mosses as chances are they won't live in our tanks. Look out for those that are underwater or growing on the rocks found on the sides of streams. These mosses have a better chance of surviving in our tanks.

Yes temptation can be great I agree, but if we can't take a leash on our greed who will?

Lim, someone, I think it was Oscar Wilde, once said, "I can resist anything but temptation" I was just trying to be realistic. Of course, it would be great if we all do like what the good guys always say, "Take nothing but photographs; leave nothing but footprints" but I think it's highly unrealistic to expect such good behaviour from everyone. The world wouldn't be such a messy place if we all can so easily put a leash on our temptations

Loh K L

[hwchoy]

quite agree with you Mr timebomb. if subzero were such a prude we wouldn't have named the Singapore moss and probably may not find out about the misnaming of Java moss and certainly not the discovery of the 17th species of Fissidens sp. in Singapore

[keehoe]

Shortman, hope you enjoy that. <---- this post doesn't make sense also. To you at least.

[shortman] you know what you are doing in angry.
[shortman] you have been kick from this posting.
[shortman] don't try to be funny.

[stormhawk]

Kee Hoe, I don't quite understand what you mean. Yes it is just the tip of the iceberg with illegal logging going on even in protected areas. I keep seeing large areas of forest being cleared to make way for oil palm plantations. Its very disturbing but I guess the need to make money blinds the eye to the loss of forests.

I understand that everyone has an innate urge to take something, especially if it was something exotic. One thing I learnt is that if you do remove something from nature, take only a little amount and go on from there. Photograph it for the record and try to propagate it. In that way you have a clear pictorial representation of a plant species.

Again I must thank Dominic and Robby for having shown us the pictures of things we may never see in our lifetime. =D>

Since the forest was very much open to visitors, it was only time before someone comes along to harvest the moss as he/she sees fit. We cannot control the human urge to have something new. What Dominic did may have caused some people to flare up unnecessarily. While taking something from nature, especially protected places, seems illegal, small samples of a naturally abundant plant looks OK to me. If a small patch is taken, the patch will regrow. If a large patch was ripped off by irresponsible people, then that may have spelt doom for the plants.

Dominic, it is good that you are going to contact the people at FRIM to do research on mosses. That's the best way to go about collecting plants legally. If the samples you took are for propagation in the home aquarium, do so with the intent to finally spread it around to others. In this way everyone gains. You get to learn more about the plants, then others get to get something new.

When I do return to Malacca in the future, I'll visit the Ayer Keroh forest to see and photograph plants if I deem necessary. While living in my uncle's house at Jasin, I saw some mosses growing near a small creek just behind my uncle's house. Did not collect any as I was unprepared to transport live samples all the way home.

As for Ayahpin, perhaps the generalisation of the Malaysian attitude by Aphy may have offended you but she has her right to state their view. When you use vulgar words to show your contempt for her views you only reinforce the generalisation that she had mentioned.

Use Malay in a proper manner rather to use it to scold someone on an English-based forum. It irks me to have someone use Malay in a very offensive tone. Being a Malay-speaker myself, I feel the "budi bahasa" in your post has been lacking. Please, be nicer in the future. Thank you.

[itssg]

Yes Loh. I will pay more attention on the river side or somewhere near to the river.

Ok guys and girls. No more arguement ok? This gonna take years to argue about this issue. Just sit down and enjoy the picture ok?

[clem]

What an interesting trip to FRIM. I've been there before, but I have not notice there are so many different kind of moss or plant to see. Out of curiosity, have you successfully converted the "moss" you got on land into underwater? Could you show the picture if any? Thanks.

[itssg]

Clem, please specify your name. Otherwise, other members can't really know who you are and where are you from.

Btw, most of the terrestrial mosses are in my paludarium. Doing very well. The bolbitis look fern in my 6 feet. Monosolenium Tenerum and some mini moss doing well too.

Just come over to my place when you are free.

Cheeres,
dom

[clem]

O! Sure!

Your half water half dry 6 feet tank ok already? I will pay you a visit when I am nearby your area.