Help

[puffers]

Hi guts, need some views from u guys.
I/m a newby with a 20 gal tank aboout 3 weeks. Water parameters seems stable: CO2 OK, ph 6.5 (lites on/ 7 lites off), kH 3-4, NH3 nil, Nitrite nil, nitrate small amt.
I've 17 neon tetras, 13 cardinals, 2 pencils, 4 rummy nose, 2 sae, 1 flying fox, 5 yamatos, 3 malayan shrimps, 2 dwarf puffers, 4 blue eye lamp, 2 white cloud, 1 bummle bee gobby.
Plants include echindorus oriental, x/mas moss, microsporum pteropus, limnophilia aromatica, hydrocotyle verrticillata, rotala.
i've got 2 PL 36w (12 hours daily).

Problems are:
1. Neon & cardinals are fading their colours & hiding. Worse during lites off period. They gradually regain some of their glow after a few hurs when lites are on. 1-2 have died after falling to school & were foounfd hiding or lying at the fall of the tank for a few days. The rest of the other species of fishes seems ok. What's the problem with the tetras. Are they having Neon Tetra Disease??? No eyes/scales popping. No fin rot. Shall I remove them fromthe tank & give them euthenasia?

2. Green algae growing on the driftwood BUT my algae eaters are not eating them. How do I get rid of the algae?

3. Shrimps are also hiding mostly. Don't see they attacking any algae. Are they not suppose to be very hard-working?

4. The lower leaves of the plants are withering & turningg yellow! The plants seems to be growing well, they get taller by the day. Some parts (esp. the parts which are cut)turn black. What could be wrong here.

5. My echinidorus has gark rough spots on the older leaves which are not removed by rubbing with fingers. Are these the black spots that are mentioned when people talk about "characteric black spots that reveal its relationship with echinidorus X 'Ros?"

Seems a lot of problem. Can any one HELP?

[] []

[Allen_1971]

Puffers,

while you filled in lots of info, could you take a look at this link and try and fill in the rest of the fields.

Also, how long ago did you start introducing fishes... if you could, provide some chronology on when the various fishes were introduced.

[juggler]

Let us know how are you fertilising the plants. And what filtration is used and the media type in the filter.

[puffers]

Allan,
The fishes were introduced in the is order:
Day 1: 2 Puffers
Day 3: 4 more puffers, 2 angels, 2 tiger barb, 2 bumble bee goby (1 died)
Day 4: 2 sae
Day 5/6: 18 neon tetra (1 eaten up by puffer)
Day 7: replanted tank cos initailly use dwrong sand (coral sand) which coz ph top go very alkaline & high kH.
Day 10: 5 medium-size cardinals, 2 rummy nose (both died immediately cos put hem in without acclimatizing them).
Day 14: 8 slightly larger cardinals, 4 rummy nose, 5 malayan shrimps (2 died)
Day 20: 5 yamatoes, 2 pencils, 2 white cloud.


Juggler,
I used an overhead filet initailly but changed to an ext filter on day 5 or so.
Fertiliser used is Ferous tab (insert-type granules that U put in when laying substrate & 1 tab with every water chanmge). For fear of over fertilisation, I've only use 1 dissolvable tab at set-up & have only poured in 1/2 cao of fertilser solution about 2 days ago.

Hope this is useful info. No digi-cam, so no pics.[]

[hugo]

Hi Puffer,

I am not a expert but will give you my two cents worth of what I think.

1) You started introducing fishes on the first day, you did not allow tank to cycle.
2) Half way through around day 5 you change filter, when you already have more fishes. New filter did not have time to cycle.
3) ALso seems like you have too many puffer in your tank.
4) Rule of thumb is if do not know how much to fertilise better to under fert than over fert till you can observe plants.
5) too long lighting period for a new tank. usually start with about 5 hours daily and increase a hour a week till you reach 10 hours.

One of the thing you can do now is more frequent water change say 20% every couple of days for say a week. If possible remove the puffers. No need since do not have snails problem.

Hope this helps.

[Allen_1971]

OK not to be picky, but from that list, you should have...

6 puffers, 2 angels (not listed in original list), 2 tiger barbs (not listed in original list), 1 bumble bee goby, 17 neon tetra, 13 cardinals, 4 rummy noses, 3 malayan shrimp, 5 yamato, 2 pencil fish, 2 white cloud

but you said you have (words in () mine)

I've 17 neon tetras, 13 cardinals, 2 pencils, 4 rummy nose, 2 sae (not listed above), 1 flying fox(not listed above), 5 yamatos, 3 malayan shrimps, 2 dwarf puffers (should be 6?), 4 blue eye lamp (not listed above), 2 white cloud, 1 bummle bee gobby.

I see 3 main issues with your tank

1) you never allowed sufficient time for your tank to properly cycle.
2) You have a pretty high fish load. approx. 50 fishes excluding shrimp in a 20G tank (differs depending on which list I use). Some of which are pretty big fishes like angels. This causes stress.
3) You have put fishes which are not very compatible together. 6 puffers? in a 20G... and angels with cardinals?

Likely a combination of these is your problem... p/s perhaps you could clarify your list and see what is actually in your tank.

[Goondoo]

one more thing, do state if you are using those 'live bacteria' products like Cycle or Bio-31.

[puffers]

hi guys,
soory for the confusion in the number of fishes. The original ist is the existing number. The others have been removed on separate occasions about 1-2 weeks ago.
I've used OceanFree Good Bacteria A-Z & Sera Nitrivec.

So rthe probelm is the high fish load causing the algae growth & the sick fishplant. What should I do? Remove the sick fishes, sick plants n scrape algae. What about replanting the tank? If replanting is the way to go, should I wait and see OR do it right away?

If I were to keep the 2 pencil, 2 SAE, 1 flying fox, 2 dwarf puffers, 1 bummble bee, 3 malayan shrimps & 5 yamatoes, 2 white cloud, 4 tiny blue eye lamp & the 4 rummy nose, how many cardinals can I add subsequently?

[Goondoo]

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On 3/4/2003 3:14:55 PM

hi guys,
soory for the confusion in the number of fishes. The original ist is the existing number. The others have been removed on separate occasions about 1-2 weeks ago.
I've used OceanFree Good Bacteria A-Z & Sera Nitrivec.

So rthe probelm is the high fish load causing the algae growth & the sick fishplant. What should I do? Remove the sick fishes, sick plants n scrape algae. What about replanting the tank? If replanting is the way to go, should I wait and see OR do it right away?

If I were to keep the 2 pencil, 2 SAE, 1 flying fox, 2 dwarf puffers, 1 bummble bee, 3 malayan shrimps & 5 yamatoes, 2 white cloud, 4 tiny blue eye lamp & the 4 rummy nose, how many cardinals can I add subsequently?


----------------

k... this is my personal study, could be wrong.

The problem with adding new fish load is due to the new ammonia it would introduce, follow by nitrite, then nitrate. In other words, there isn't a so call "safe" time to add fish into the tank, since no matter when you add, the same amount will be generated.

What you could do is maybe adding fish very slowly, like 4-5 per week, maintaining a good level of plants at the same time increasing the bio load so slow that both the spikes, ammonia and nitrite are still within the bearable limit for your fishes.

One guru here. plantbrain, had mentioned isolating te tank for about 4 days from light and it should help solving the algae problem. For personal preference, I don't mind being more intimate, up, close and personal with my tank once a week, removing them using a green sponge. Should you decide to replant, do it when you have your time. A healthy heavily planted tank will remove most of your algae problems.

Anyway, do monitor your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate even thou you are using those 'live bacteria' compound. Chances are it will still need few days to digest those ammonia, then nitrites. Try not to change water too often since it will only extend your tank's and filter cycling period. Add very small dose(maybe 1/5 of recommended) of those live bacteria over five days rather then dumping full amount in since day one. Remember to add anti-chlorine before adding in the water.

Alright seniors, mark my assignment please

[puffers]

Thx GoonDoo.

But I'm a big goondoon (sorry for the pun). If the loower leaves of my plantes are turning yellow now (prob cos the don't have enuf lite). Won't planting them more densely aggrevate this problem?

The other question I've always wanted to ask is HOW DO U GUYS PRUNE YOYUR PLANTS? Just snip it off to shorten them?

Sorry for te questions. May sound dumb BUt can't help it wat, I'm green in this trade.

[theodore]

You may wanna consider reducing the types of fishes in your tank. Pencilfishes, white clouds and tetras (cardinal, neon, rummy-nose, etc) fare better when you have 6 or more.

Another problem is that SAEs and flying foxes grow too big, too fast and will definitely limit the number of fishes u can keep in a 20gal.

[Goondoo]

I will normally snip off those affected plants like rotten leaves or empty branches...

Since you have 72 watt for a 20G tank, unlikely due to insufficient lights. Nutrients defiency or insufficient CO2 seems to be the culprits. Add maybe TMG (swore by many forumers here), monitor you PH and KH.

[bclee]

--------
Hi guts, need some views from u guys.
I/m a newby with a 20 gal tank aboout 3 weeks. Water parameters seems stable: CO2 OK, ph 6.5 (lites on/ 7 lites off), kH 3-4, NH3 nil, Nitrite nil, nitrate small amt.
--------
How small is small amount?
Keep your nitrate to about 10ppm. If possible, measure PO4.
What is your fertilisation regime.



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I've 17 neon tetras, 13 cardinals, 2 pencils, 4 rummy nose, 2 sae, 1 flying fox, 5 yamatos, 3 malayan shrimps, 2 dwarf puffers, 4 blue eye lamp, 2 white cloud, 1 bummle bee gobby.
-------
That's pretty high fish load for your 20gal. Potential problem with algae.


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Plants include echindorus oriental, x/mas moss, microsporum pteropus, limnophilia aromatica, hydrocotyle verrticillata, rotala.
i've got 2 PL 36w (12 hours daily).
-------
That's pretty high lighting you have. You got quite good CO2 level. Try to keep up with your macros, NO3, PO4 & K.


-------
Problems are:
1. Neon & cardinals are fading their colours & hiding. Worse during lites off period. They gradually regain some of their glow after a few hurs when lites are on. 1-2 have died after falling to school & were foounfd hiding or lying at the fall of the tank for a few days. The rest of the other species of fishes seems ok. What's the problem with the tetras. Are they having Neon Tetra Disease??? No eyes/scales popping. No fin rot. Shall I remove them fromthe tank & give them euthenasia?
-------
Your tetras seemed to be stressed.


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2. Green algae growing on the driftwood BUT my algae eaters are not eating them. How do I get rid of the algae?
-------
What type of green algae? Spot, hair...?
Keep your plants healthy. They will keep the algae away.


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3. Shrimps are also hiding mostly. Don't see they attacking any algae. Are they not suppose to be very hard-working?
-------
Yamatos are the hardworking ones.


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4. The lower leaves of the plants are withering & turningg yellow! The plants seems to be growing well, they get taller by the day. Some parts (esp. the parts which are cut)turn black. What could be wrong here.
-------
Keep up with nutrients like K. You got more than sufficient lights.

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5. My echinidorus has gark rough spots on the older leaves which are not removed by rubbing with fingers. Are these the black spots that are mentioned when people talk about "characteric black spots that reveal its relationship with echinidorus X 'Ros?amp;quot;
-------
Sounds like algae on old leaves. Just trim those leaves away if they bother you.


BC

[puffers]

thx guys. Will try to make the necessary changes. [:] [:0]

[chia2k]

not so sure about your other parameter , since goondoo and the rest have given their 2 cents . follow their advise.

but about your fish load

1. i think theres too many
2. quite alot of puffer for a 20 gal tank . for my 73 gal tank , i use to have 3 , but i removed 2 so now theres only 1
3. tiger barb -> 2 ? thats like telling them to go nip the other fishy. ned at least 8 to prevent them from nipping the rest

[chia2k]

so hows your tank doing ?

rem. folks , cycling of tank is beri important .
filter mediums are a good place for growth of bacteria. um not too sure about this , correct me if im wrong , but if i use the water i took out from the tank to wash the filter medium , is there still a bacteria colony on my filter medium ?