Weird Disease Just Popped up!

**bclee** · 7th Mar 2003, 09:50

December to now is not a long time. To have outbreaks at so close intervals is pointing to something's wrong. If that is not solved, you might probably get another outbreak 3 months down the road.

My suspicion is the water too.

Good water ----&gt; healthy fish ----&gt; resistant to diseases

BC

**loupgarou** · 7th Mar 2003, 10:29

what do you expect out of the water? pathogen introduction?

as far as water changes go, I'm pretty much change twice a week.

I tend to suspect pathogen introduction from eg: 2 of the pet shops I never go before except for this sat/sun.

as far as my december episode was considered , it was the denitrator + sulphate poisoning + death of 200 shrimp + resultant bacterial bloom/dropsy, ie: you note dropsy in the fish.
I revamped the whole tank. removed all substrate, changed to Fluorite + peroxided the whole tank for pathogens.

other than that, the only thing I can think of is NEwater.

does the symptoms so far (ie:seemingly healthy one moment, a little laboured breathing, 45 minutes later, you're dead.)
match eg: chloramine poisoning? the only water additive for that I'm using is these sodium thiosulfate crystals (that I've always been using), and my tank registers as zero ammonia

**loupgarou** · 7th Mar 2003, 10:47

another positive suspect.

Chilodonella

Chilodonella is classed as the most dangerous of the Protozoan parasites and can cause mass fatalities especially in overstocked ponds and aquaria.

It is between 40-60 microns in diameter and can be easily identified on a microscope slide using 100 x magnification.

It reproduces itself by transverse fission, and the adult has a heart shape appearance, although this is changeable, and its body is evenly covered with cilia.

The parasite can actively swim short distances so healthy fish are easily infected. An infestation of Chilodonella can cause opaqueness of the skin, especially between the head and dorsal fin and in severe cases the skin can look swollen. Gills are also attacked and can be totally destroyed, quickly killing the host.

Once dead, the host is quickly deserted by the parasites who swim off in search of new prey.

Affected koi may show classic signs of flashing and rubbing, may hold their fins clamped against their body and appear listless. They will also hang at the pond surface and gasp for air in severe infestations.

Recommended treatments include Malachite Green and Formalin, Potassium Permanganate or Salt baths at 3% ( 4 and one half oz. per gallon )

---------
ie: eg: madgascar rainbow with body swelling.
and instant death of all the smaller fish with no visible symptoms (ie: gill destruction.)

**loupgarou** · 8th Mar 2003, 02:47

13 hours later: 11:20 pm.

1 dead cory venuezelanus
2 dead kuhli loaches
1 sick white cloud mountain minnow (fished to hospital tank)
1 sick harlquin rasbora, exhibiting popeye in one eye, fished to hospital tank.
1 dead botia sidthimunki *sob*
---
2:30 am
both sick fish in hospital tank are dead
found a floating (but still alive) corydoras macropterus, put into hospital tank

**loupgarou** · 8th Mar 2003, 11:32

11:30am, corydoras macropterus in hospital tank = dead.

checked for more dead fish, couldn't find any.

**loupgarou** · 9th Mar 2003, 01:58

11pm Sat.

found one sick corydoras leucomelas
found 2 sick cardinals. 1 with pop eye.

---
2am.
all 3 still alive in hospital tank but not dead yet.
---

still some dubious looking cardinals (off color) and 1 with the dorsal fin bitten or something in the tank.

hopes that the disease has either ran its course or the paragard manages to kill/slow it down

**kubrich** · 9th Mar 2003, 02:17

no offence joop,but from the likes of this,seems like ure fishies are all sick? dunno if they are in any kind of suffering and all,but would it be better to cull them restart ure tank instead of puttin them thru so much and all, and if the disease is in the main tank why dun take all live stock out and place them in hospital tanks and treat them while u redo the tank and rid it off the disease and then reintroduce those fishies that have gotten cured... juz my 0.2 cents worth..

it's sad to hear ure fishies all die like tt one by one,and i guess it must be pretty depressing for u too.

[

]

**loupgarou** · 9th Mar 2003, 02:45

you can basically treat the whole tank as a hospital tank,

like i said before , by the time I spot a sick fish, its too late for it.

I'll try to get a microscope tommorow from toy's r us or something. but what I suspect is gill destruction so even if you kill the parasite with medication, the fish still dies.

corydoras leucomelas in hospital tank dead at 2:40am.
cardinals still alive though.

**benny** · 9th Mar 2003, 09:53

Hey Loupgarou,

If you get the microscope, keep this thread updated/posted. I'm very keen to know what you see beyond our naked eyes. Perhaps the &quot;no visible symptom&quot; will be a different story under 400X magnification.

Good luck!!

Cheers,

**theodore** · 9th Mar 2003, 10:01

----------------
On 3/9/2003 2:45:43 AM

you can basically treat the whole tank as a hospital tank,

like i said before , by the time I spot a sick fish, its too late for it.

I'll try to get a microscope tommorow from toy's r us or something. but what I suspect is gill destruction so even if you kill the parasite with medication, the fish still dies.

corydoras leucomelas in hospital tank dead at 2:40am.
cardinals still alive though.

----------------

It would be a lot harder to kill any pathogens that are hidden away (e.g. deep inside the gravel bed) if you are to treat the whole tank as a hospital tank. Why take a chance that it may recur in the form of a mutated (and drug resistant) strain in the months ahead?

**loupgarou** · 9th Mar 2003, 11:15

Sun 11am :
found 1 dead otocinclus skeletonised.

the two cardinals in hospital are alive. even the one with popeye/cloudy eye which I might euthanize.

I worry about the cardinals. when lights are off, cardinals usually lose their colouration, with this coloration on, immediately after switching on the lights, I can notice some have redder gill plates compared to others.

**sherchoo** · 9th Mar 2003, 17:54

Chris,
Any idea what is the NH4 and NO2 level of your tank?

**loupgarou** · 10th Mar 2003, 11:46

yes:
nh4 = zero
no2 = zero

---

anyway, the disease seems to have abated, but the cardinals looks off color still, did a 10% water change, maybe overdose on salt now..grr

the cardinals in the hospital tank aren't dead, 1 jumped out.
I caught another sick one and added it to the hospital tank.

current symptoms, no longer the rapid death, but either they have gone insane or its a swim bladder problem. they no longer swim straight but swim relatively in same location in spirals (ie: Like a top/gyroscope) no sense of direction at all. at rest they look normal (ie: correct direction, but when swimming, they spiral)
--
I think one of the key things here is temperature, after the 99% water change, I raised the temp to 30, during which time I didn't get any deaths until I reduced it to 28 where upon the corydoras leucomelas got the disease as well.

**loupgarou** · 11th Mar 2003, 00:14

came back home 10PM Mon.. (grr, went to biotope but it was closed)

the two cardinals in the hospital tank with the spinning problem are still alive.
one dead oto in the main tank.

**loupgarou** · 11th Mar 2003, 11:10

Tuesday morning: no dead fish visible.
found 1 more tetra in main tank with spinning sickness. not certain if its a swim bladder or CJD in fish. grr

**Allen_1971** · 11th Mar 2003, 13:35

whats your salt level in the tank now chris?

btw, could they have whirling disease?

----------
Symptoms of whirling disease include erratic circular swimming and blackening of the tail and caudal peduncle (muscular area just behind the tail fin). Fish may develop bent or open mouths and misshapen bodies. Fish gradually die as the disease progresses.
----------

**loupgarou** · 11th Mar 2003, 18:22

other than the spinning thing they do, none of the other symptoms match, but who knows.

anyway, I'll read up more.

salt = no idea, don't really measure salinity, however, through out all this medication and temperature changes and water changes , disease outbreaks, all my malayans and yamatoes are fine. (and my baby dwarf royal pleco from akoh..)

**loupgarou** · 11th Mar 2003, 18:31

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Colo_Wil...ase%5B1%5D.htm

quite unlikely,since its a coldwater disease.

but the 30 years in aquaria - horrific thought.
----

anyway,
will continue to monitor,
a) pathogen could be dead due to increased temperature + medication, but the fish could be permanently damaged (ie: brain or gill damaged)
b) pathogen in some other stage of life? cysts/spores etc.

--

**loupgarou** · 12th Mar 2003, 00:15

Wed 12/3/2003 00:05am
no visible deaths in the tank. (although I did a rough count of my cardinals, 30 left or so, meaning at least 30 died and were eaten by the shrimp so no corpses seen. also my dwarf chain loaches are fewer...grr)
--
I just bought the only set of 1200x microscope from toy's r us Thomson at $70. (I checked with kings aqua supplies, cost $250 for a standard 450x microscope..lol)

--
as for the spinning cardinals. only 1 still alive in hospital tank. 2 are dead.

**loupgarou** · 13th Mar 2003, 12:44

Wed Night 12/Mar
2 dead fish:
bumblebee goby and some small tetra.
all the spinning cardinals are dead in hospital tank
changed water 4 buckets full (20%)
added seachem prime (dechlorinater)
after that
salt, sodium bicarbonate, a peat tablet, seachem fluorish + temp reduced back to normal + fan on. (cos my lace plants and aponogeton bovianus started to brown/die thanks to the increased temp).

Thu Morning 13/Mar
1 dead SAE
found one spinning cardinal but didn't catch it out.

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