Black water extract in a planted tank

[nivlekx]

I just got an aro into my planted tank and was adviced to plunk in tons of black water to help the fish stablize. Would like to know any side effects of the black water on plants in the tank. I suppose I can figure the lack of light as 1.

[Simon]

is the blackwater gonna stain the tank? if so, light penetratio will be greatly reduced.. if u have plants like fern, cryptos, echinodorus..etc then u got nothing to worry.. u can oso consider Dennerle TR7, blackwater extract which is colourless

[nivlekx]

Thanks. Dont think it will stain permanently. Intend to do a 15% water change every 5 days for the next 4 weeks to remove then dark colourisation. I just hope my plants dont die on me in these 4 weeks.

[vinz]

Nivlekx,

First question, ever ask the LFS owner what blackwater does? As far as I know, it lowers pH.

In a planted tank with CO2 injection, we don't need blackwater, since we can use CO2 and KH to control the pH.

[vinz]

As for stabilising the fish... my personal opinion and observations...

Arowanas due to size and diet, generate alot of waste, including ammonia. Given that most arowana tanks do not really cycle properly as they are bare before the fish is introduced, the tank is likely to go into a ammonia spike fairly fast. Blackwater probably helps alot because lower pH reduces the toxicity of ammonia, hence reducing physical stress on the fish.

Most arowanas end up in bare tanks from day one, which is extremely stressful psychologically as they are in a brand new environment with no "safe" hiding spots. Darkening the water with blackwater, helps calm them as they'll feel that they are hidden in the darker water.

In a planted tank, things are slightly different.

The lower pH in a planted tank (usually 6.8 or lower) helps for the above reasons.

Plants after a few days of adapting will take up some of the NH, removing it from the N-cycle, hence reducing the peak or duration NO2 spike and eventually the final NO3 levels.

Dense planting provide ample hiding space for the fish. They can hide and observe when ppl are around and then come out when they think it's safe.

The more natural environment should help in calming the fish. Not saying that it's perfect, but definitely better then bare tanks.

[Allen_1971]

I use blackwater extract frequently... in fact its part of my weekly water change regime... true, it can color the water a bit, but generally, thats not a problem. As for the "pros" of using black water extract, heres a link discussing humic acids (which blackwater has lots of)

[vinz]

Allen,

Given that blackwater lowers pH, and hence make the known CO2-pH-KH charts irrelevant, how do you determine your CO2 levels?

[Plantbrain]

You can substract the actual from the known table, add the peat/humics after and see what happenes to the KH and pH while keeping the CO2 input the same.

I think the only place for this stuff is in the gravel, not the water coumn except for things like Killis, some Apistos which is what you'd have if you are breeding etc, then you'd be better off to have a fish only barebottom etc tank if this is your goal.
Peat does help the gravel and the initial start up phase.

It's difficult to put a precise amount a set amount lower the pH/causes variations in the CO2 table etc.

Some folks use a lot, some don't.
When folks get Altum/Discus/Apisto spawns without it, I know I don't need it.

I think some algae don't like peat water. Green water is one but most of the attached algae seem to.

What I find interesting is that the concentration of humics/tannins stays the same here in Florida most of the year, they don't go up or down much but are constantly being respullied to the lakes and pools etc. So something is breaking them down fairly fast.

This region is unique since you can go from hard clear waters to murky coffee tannic water to clear tea colored amazon Negro like water with in 10 kilometers.

Same plants in each place. I'll let you guess where the plants do the best.

[Allen_1971]

I havent' used PH/KH tables in a long time... and if I had to choose a method, I would simply shut off my CO2, and take my ph in the morning (with no CO2 injection and before lights on) and then target to bring my ph down by 0.6-0.7...

In practice though, I've been running this tank so long that I usually just go by bps...

[nivlekx]

Actually I havent done much in terms of monitoring, usualy its just the simple look and see if there are any visible problems with the tank otherwise just leave it. Too poor to invest in some ph and KH testers at the moment, will eventually get some over the next few months.

After 2 days I can visibly note that the plants are losing the green colour and turning slightly brown. I suppose due to the lack of light. The fish wise, he is healthy and eating fine. Will probably do a 20% water change tommorow and see how it goes. Keep ya guyz posted.

Vinz: The uncle at C328 asked me to dump it in cos he says they live in that environment there and I should all the more plunk em in cos mine's a planted tank. Couldn't find any scientific explaination for that, in any case, I was way way too excited bout getting the fish home that I just took what he said. Maybe I can learn to think a lil more. []

[vinz]

My problem with them is that they tout blackwater without understanding it's usage and effect. Furthurmore, most of them have very little understanding, if any, of planted tanks, so it's up top us to figure out whether blackwater is suitable and at what amounts.

[nivlekx]

Did a 20% water change and the fish looks to be in better shape than before, perhaps the pH was a lil low prior to this. As for the blackish water, I really dont see much improvements. I guess it will take another 5-6 changes to improve. Any advice on daily water changes to speed up the process? Afraid it would affect the young aro.

[vinz]

Arowana's are pretty tough. Just watch the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels, especially when it starts feeding. Should not be a problem with such frequent water change. Have you set your CO2 and KH? Start monitoring your pH... try not to let it get higher then 6.8. Consider using anti-chlorine/chloramine.

[robin]

I have been using black water quite a bit, Not much problem encountered.

Robin

[nivlekx]

Looks like I have a very big problem on hand, my pH is 7.7-7.9. Rather high, how can I drop it quickly enough? I only have a DIY CO2 rig so thats out. Black-water again? Plants seem to be dying... Dilemma....

[vinz]

Hmmmm... probably due to the frequent water change. Some areas get tap water at 8.0 pH.

What size is your tank? Since its an arowana, I guess the tanks is at least 4ft? DIY CO2 most likely not be enough... your options are more DIY CO2 bottles, getting a pressurised system or Seachem Excel. I would go for option 2.

We need more info about your tank too. Use the form here.

[Allen_1971]

I agree with vinz... you need more CO2... and for a 4ft tank, the only sensible long term option is buying a CO2 cylinder...

[elmike]

Hi folks

A word of caution...

I once added blackwater that had been kept in the closet for abt 9 mths into my tank. I was shocked to see that my Windelov ferns, that was otherwise growing well, became dechlorophylled and melted away like wax within 2 days!

I suspect chemical change of some sort had occured during storage that is harmful to plts (and fish???). I must add though that nothing adverse had happened to my plts and fish when I used the same bottle of b water in the initial mths.

B water gives a nice and natural tea-colour tinge to the water and I'm quite sure it does not permenantly stain aquarium silicone and accessories.

mike

[nivlekx]

Ok an update. Just got a new CO2 cylinder and aggressively dropping my pH from 7.8 to 7.5. See how it will go.

Beginners Info Sheet
--------------------

Tank Dimensions (LxWxH): 4' x 2' x 2'
Tank Volume (litres or gallons): approx. 70 gallons
Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) : 216W
Type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) : PL
No. of Hours your light is on : 16
CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : approx. 4-5
Type of CO2 (DIY/Liquid/Tank) : 2L cylinder
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor): Reactor
Substrate Used : JBL
How Thick is your base fert : 1 cm
How thick is your gravel : 4 cm
Liquid Fertilizers Used : Ocean-free (Normal and Ferrous)
Frequency of fertilization : Once a week
Tank Temperature : 29
Type of Filter (overhead/internal/canister) : Resun Canister (1200L/H)
Filter media used : Bio-sponge and Ceramic Rings
How long has your tank been set up : 1 month
Other equipment : Surface-skimmer

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can)
---------------------------------------
Carbonate Hardness (KH): Unknown
Total Hardness (gH): Unknown
pH : 7.5
NH4 (ppm): Unknown
NO2 (ppm): Unknown
NO3 (ppm): Unknown
PO4 (ppm): Unknown
Fe (ppm): Unknown

Bioload (Your Fish and Plants)
------------------------------

Quite a large variety of plants. Not sure of the names, still new to planted tanks.

Fishes: 1 arowana, roughly 20 tiger barbs, 2 angel fishes and 1 pleco.

Describe your problem :

pH is high. algae starting to boom on tank walls.

[Allen_1971]

errr did you make a typo? your lights are on for 16 hours a day? If its not a typo, I think you need to cut back a bit...