100% empty tank...

**blankets3** · 29th Jan 2010, 15:34

Hello everyone.

I just got a tank from my brother and am very interested in a clean and simple planted tank...

right now I have nothing in the tank and would like to start off by putting some gravel and start a moss floor using some riccia moss since it from what I've seen it looks like the brightest green, and doesn't seem to grow very high.

I was also reading a similar post to this one, (im sure a new one pops up every few weeks about this) about cleaning the bottom (gravel/soil) i seen some ppl suggesting the tube vacuum, but as i would like to be laying gravel id hate to have to pull it up each time i do this? there was also a suggestion to an undergravel filter, but is this even necessary if you have very minimal and tiny fish?

which leads me to my next question, do I actually NEED fish? I know that its better for the plants from what I read but I also remember seeing that it said its not necessary. is this true?

Now from what I've reading there are a few different ways to grow the carpet --- 2 pieces of mesh with the moss between or with slate rocks; but what is this I’m reading about soils now? (Malaya, Africana Amazonia I and II)
I guess basically what I’m saying/asking is

I want to get my carpet laid down asap, but I obviously don't want to rush into it. I will continue reading but if anyone can help me or point me in a more straight forward path to get my carpet started.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions in advance.

(sorry if this doesn't make too much sense I'm typing this on fumes, but I really want to lean as much as I can as quickly as I can)

**edwardchuajh** · 29th Jan 2010, 15:47

Hi,

The thing about Riccia is that it is not a "rooted" kind of plant, in nature it is a floating plant.

Thus, if you dont constantly trim and maintain it, clumps of it will break off, float to the surface and start growing very quickly everywhere.. That's why you need to secure it with a mesh or lines to rocks/driftwood.

My own experience was it was always on the surface, in filters, everywhere. And it isn't a very natural and long term solution to use Riccia.

My suggestion is stick to plants that creep and actually grow roots into the soil, e.g. HC (Hemianthus callitrichoides "Cuba") or Glosso. Which forms very nice carpets.

**JavaMoss** · 30th Jan 2010, 00:01

Hi,

My 2-cents worth of experience.

Initially, I would also like to have a simple planted tank. Mine is 2ft.
From reading and asking, I found basic equipment are:
1. external canister filter is best. it keeps the water clean and circulating and will not disturb the gravel.
2. sufficient light for whatever type of plant you want.

If you want to plant moss, then no need for expensive soil. Moss do not grow on soil. Moss just float if not attached. Therefore you have to attach them to something. Moss grows very fast given the right water temp and lighting.

Fishes. Fishes add color to the tank. Be careful of the type of fishes though. Some will eat the moss. If you have small fishes, then no need to clean after them. Anyway, their poo is plant fertilizer.

So you have to decide what type of plants for the beginning.
Then you get the right equipment for the plants to thrive.

bye

**blankets3** · 30th Jan 2010, 06:21

I think I will go with the soil route, my only other question would be besides Hemianthus callitrichoides or Glosso what other plants are good for creeping? and not as dependent on Co2 in order to grow.

lastly, I see everyone use poerful lights but cant you just use LOW power leds? for the same light output which would be much cheaper and provide the same results?

**bettafantastic** · 30th Jan 2010, 09:30

You can try keeping shrimps in the tank. Cherry is very simple and can easily breed if theres enough plants. If you like nicer colours you can try keeping Crystal Red Shrimps but need chiller and proper care.

**stormhawk** · 31st Jan 2010, 11:26

You don't need fish in a fish tank or even shrimps in a moss tank if you get your balance right. The only problem is that at times, you'll start seeing tiny animals like Cyclops and some seed shrimp running about, if you don't have fish in the tank. You also run the risk of breeding mosquito in an uncovered planted tank without any fish in there. So if you're going fish less, it is best to get a fine netting to cover the top of the tank. This prevents the mosquitoes from breeding and also prevents dragonflies and damselflies from trying to lay eggs in your tank.

If you want to grow just moss for fun, keep the tank bare and make moss walls instead. Use those stainless steel mesh to create your moss carpet and give them some good lighting, cool water and some DIY CO2, and they'll grow soon enough.

**blankets3** · 1st Feb 2010, 07:59

Originally Posted by stormhawk

You don't need fish in a fish tank or even shrimps in a moss tank if you get your balance right. The only problem is that at times, you'll start seeing tiny animals like Cyclops and some seed shrimp running about, if you don't have fish in the tank. You also run the risk of breeding mosquito in an uncovered planted tank without any fish in there. So if you're going fish less, it is best to get a fine netting to cover the top of the tank. This prevents the mosquitoes from breeding and also prevents dragonflies and damselflies from trying to lay eggs in your tank.

If you want to grow just moss for fun, keep the tank bare and make moss walls instead. Use those stainless steel mesh to create your moss carpet and give them some good lighting, cool water and some DIY CO2, and they'll grow soon enough.

uhh we don't have dragonfly's in Canada... lol or much anything else. just flies and mosquitoes in the summer time. but very rarely do we get any in the house.

I might have a few fish just for the plants sake but not too many. id actually rather have lil shrimps than fish, not that i don't like fish i used to own a tropical 30gallon tank but this one id really like to focus on the plants.

**bossteck** · 1st Feb 2010, 11:45

Originally Posted by blankets3

I think I will go with the soil route, my only other question would be besides Hemianthus callitrichoides or Glosso what other plants are good for creeping? and not as dependent on Co2 in order to grow.

lastly, I see everyone use poerful lights but cant you just use LOW power leds? for the same light output which would be much cheaper and provide the same results?

Plants tends to grow taller (creep less) when there is insufficient lights.

**Blue Whale** · 1st Feb 2010, 12:38

blanket, correct me if I am wrong; Your side should be freezing at the moment -.- You might want to look at hardy fish which can take that temperature, else you will need a heater.

**blankets3** · 1st Feb 2010, 13:56

Originally Posted by Blue Whale

blanket, correct me if I am wrong; Your side should be freezing at the moment -.- You might want to look at hardy fish which can take that temperature, else you will need a heater.

sorry i don't understand what you mean by my side should be freezing at the moment??

ill be getting a heater n all the other necessary items to make sure my tank is running properly.

**Blue Whale** · 1st Feb 2010, 14:49

Originally Posted by blankets3

sorry i don't understand what you mean by my side should be freezing at the moment??

ill be getting a heater n all the other necessary items to make sure my tank is running properly.

I checked http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/canada_e.html 8C to -24C not consider freezing?

**blankets3** · 2nd Feb 2010, 12:38

Originally Posted by Blue Whale

I checked http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/canada_e.html 8C to -24C not consider freezing?

lol ya its that cold outside in my room its nice and warm the water was only about 20 C in my tank ( ya i will need a heater) but no problem

im still confused about the lights (i want leds)

**Blue Whale** · 2nd Feb 2010, 12:46

Wow, you give me 24C I be hidding in my blanket and comforter already. ^^" (Singapore above 25C most of the time) Anyway back to topic, Canada should be able to find Asian Arowanna, Discus, Apisto. Look at Photography section some nice colorful Apistos there captured by a US forumer. Given that kind of temperature I would say you could grow practically most of the plants.

Lights: E.g. Tank = 20G (US Gallon), Total light wattage = 40w. So 40/20 you get 2wpg. Depending on the plant type, most people will try to attain a minimum of 3wpg. Here is a calculator by Vinz.
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum/aq_calculator.php
Punch in the figures and it will calculate the wpg for you. WPG is just a general guide, light will differs against tank height and the obstacles inside the tank such as Driftwood or stones that might hamper light.

Right guys, continue with your recommendation for plants and fish please.

**reveru** · 2nd Feb 2010, 13:42

I used to have a simple 2 feet planted tank which was about 15G (US) filled (empty tank about 18G). I used a 2x24watt T5HO light fixture. This gave me 3.2 watts per gallon which should be enough. However I found that the plants did not grow very well, perhaps due to lack of fertilization except for some fish poo or other factors (it was a low-tech planted tank).

Somewhere along the way I added another 36watt PL light fixture to the existing 48watt T5HO and found that over the course of a few weeks, my hairgrass grew into a very thick and green carpet! I added CO2 injection and it soon took over the whole tank. I also had some Amazon sword plants (which grew too big for my 2 feet) as well as some Rotala (sp). Nothing fancy.

Based on my experience, perhaps you should get somewhat higher than 3 WPG in case you should encounter the same thing as me. I recently acquired a single 4x24watt fixture for my 2 feet and it looks cleaner and neater then having 2 light fixtures above the tank. To provide you with a comparison, my tank was 24" x 12" x 15". It was not an overly deep tank but perhaps the sword plants obscured some of the light.

Somehow your description of "nice and warm" is amusing to me. 20'C is considered pretty chilly to me. The temp in SG now is about 27-34! Anyway as a last note, getting some soil substrate would be good because you never know what you eventually want to grow as a carpet! In any case, glosso and HC would require CO2 to grow well so maybe you wanna have a look at some hairgrass which would grow without CO2, but slower.

**stormhawk** · 6th Feb 2010, 13:10

If you placed the tank near the window or out in the open, dragonflies will come. My friend lives on the 24th floor of a high rise apartment block, and he still gets dragonfly larva.

In your case it's more of other pesky animals I guess, especially if you live near a forested area with streams.

I like my current post count number - 4,444.