Nav's Iwagumi Project Log "Greater Heights"

[Navanod]

a thought is to change your main piece to something slightly bigger and with more detail to create a more impressive focal point.

Yes, my wife-to-be thinks so too (she's a designer )
I did try to reveal more of the main rock and raised the slope even higher



What do you think of that? I might have to really get an XL rock if all else fails...

[Navanod]

Thanks to all for your pointers so far, really helpful to a noob scaper :P

I had to cheat a fair bit to get that slope this high though...

Really liked that scoop/flattener that I found lying around...probably meant for getting rid of ice from freezer

I concluded that 18L of soil is still not enough and that too much foam is being buried as of now...something's bound to go wrong with this much buried foam! But my vision was of a really high slope, inspired by this



So I'm getting more soil...will rescape again once the soil's here

[blue33]

Now the thing you facing is showing too much smooth surface of the rock, you lack of texture on the rock, try to show more of the ugly surface. The soil you have is ok. If you like the location of the rock, then you should play around with rotating the rock in the same position to show the uneven surface, that way you will see the beauty of the rock and overall. Hope i'm not talking rubbish.

[ranmasatome]

i have a suggestion to remove the foam and replace them with either more rocks of the same kind below.. or... red vlocanic rocks.

red volcanic rock is relatively cheap if you buy it from a fish farm. and its is rough and irregularly shaped. This is good as a base because.. 1) its rough edges gives it "grip" to hold onto one another. 2) the rough edges hold your soil. 3) it is damn light compared to rocks. 4) relatively cheaper. 5)because of 1-4 it can make a good "base slope" that you can then pour your real soil over (not all, save about 1/2 - 2/3 for after the real rocks go on.)
Once you've done that.. place your rocks in clusters on top of this "base".
When placing rocks, i also agree with the rest that the cluster idea works. You will probably need more smaller rocks (from what i see you have now)... or alternatively.. you can bury your big rocks deeper in. Point is.. you need a variation of sizes.

As for your focal rock.. the big sharp one.. i feel that this rock is very forceful. Meaning that it looks like it wants everyone to look at it from how sharp it looks. its just very "in your face" if you know what i mean. When i look at your tank.. thats mostly what my eyes see first.
i think you need to consider the direction and flow of the rocks. Turn each rock around many times and explore different orientations and consider if you can use the best characteristics of a rock to enhance this. This might mean burying 3/4 of a rock such that only a small part is seen.. but this part is the best part and adds to the flow of your tank..
i took the liberty to draw out what i think and see your rocks point to and what i think the flow of your current set up looks like to me.

Currently, i feel that the rocks just point all over the place. Rocks on the left point left..and up and sideways... rocks on the right point left and right and sideways. i'm not saying that all rocks have to point the same way.. but lets take a look at the picture that inspired you..

OR FeiMiao's 5 year old tank (can use this as example ken?)

OR 6 other configurations that can signify "flow"


I hope you can get the gist of what i'm getting at. "flow" of rocks and the tank is a hard concept to explain. If you notice the red dots as well.. thats probably where your eye will wander to?

Okay.. this is getting long..haha... but i do hope you get what i'm trying to convey...and i hope i'm helping
Good luck with the tank.. it really looks full of potential.. can't wait to see how it looks up, a new tank is always exciting..

[Fuzzy]

Great diagrams! gonna have to request a consult when I go the Iwagumi route!

[Shadow]

Since we are talking about flow, what is consider to be desirable flow? To me it is just bunch of arrow flying around. What is a good flow suppose to be? does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?

[Navanod]

Now the thing you facing is showing too much smooth surface of the rock, you lack of texture on the rock, try to show more of the ugly surface. The soil you have is ok. If you like the location of the rock, then you should play around with rotating the rock in the same position to show the uneven surface, that way you will see the beauty of the rock and overall. Hope i'm not talking rubbish.

I already tried to pick and show the rocks and facings with more characters. The nature of this type of rocks is more of a windswept/water eroded look with lines looking like it was eaten away by running water. But overall, its smoother than Seiryu rocks. The main rock's other side is even smoother and have a large patch of "rust" that I'm trying to hide.
But I'll try to see if I can highlight what little features I can

i have a suggestion to remove the foam and replace them with either more rocks of the same kind below.. or... red vlocanic rocks.


As for your focal rock.. the big sharp one.. i feel that this rock is very forceful. Meaning that it looks like it wants everyone to look at it from how sharp it looks. its just very "in your face" if you know what i mean. When i look at your tank.. thats mostly what my eyes see first.
i think you need to consider the direction and flow of the rocks. Turn each rock around many times and explore different orientations and consider if you can use the best characteristics of a rock to enhance this. This might mean burying 3/4 of a rock such that only a small part is seen.. but this part is the best part and adds to the flow of your tank..
i took the liberty to draw out what i think and see your rocks point to and what i think the flow of your current set up looks like to me.

Currently, i feel that the rocks just point all over the place. Rocks on the left point left..and up and sideways... rocks on the right point left and right and sideways. i'm not saying that all rocks have to point the same way.. but lets take a look at the picture that inspired you..

OR FeiMiao's 5 year old tank (can use this as example ken?)

OR 6 other configurations that can signify "flow"


I hope you can get the gist of what i'm getting at. "flow" of rocks and the tank is a hard concept to explain. If you notice the red dots as well.. thats probably where your eye will wander to?

Okay.. this is getting long..haha... but i do hope you get what i'm trying to convey...and i hope i'm helping
Good luck with the tank.. it really looks full of potential.. can't wait to see how it looks up, a new tank is always exciting..

WOW!
Thank you for taking so much effort to explain this to me!

Volcanic rocks...thats a good idea. Its what the LFS calls lava rocks right? I think they also do not alter the water parameters?

Flow and Yin/yang had been the things that I just cannot seemed to grasp maybe because I'm just not a very spiritual person. However, your diagrams had made "flow" much clearer to me now and I think I'm starting to understand why my vision looked so good in my mind but I cannot recreate it!

Will rettry again

[Fireball]

Hi Limy

Thats not a stupid question! Its valid! Foam boards were ripped off the packing cushions of one of my workplace equipment! There's alot more that time, really regret not grabbing more before they were thrown out
We can also find such foams locally but most are white...I'm also looking for the black version locally now!

Rocks are from Biotope as indicated in post #3. Very good service, they let me dig and play around with the rocks in a mock tank to see if they look good with each other.

Hi

I have a couple of questions and thought you might be able to help clarify:

1) Is the foam going to stay in the tank?
2) Will it float or cause movement to your soil and rock since it going to float?3) Will it have any side effects? I meant it will be exposed to water for a long time. Any chemicals that might dissolved into the water after a long exposure to water?
4) What was the foam formally used to pack? Safe for fishes?

Sorry, I am just curious. Thanks for your time.

[Shadow]

Flow and Yin/yang had been the things that I just cannot seemed to grasp maybe because I'm just not a very spiritual person. However, your diagrams had made "flow" much clearer to me now and I think I'm starting to understand why my vision looked so good in my mind but I cannot recreate it!

You able to grasp these arrow thinggy that Ranmasatome draw? I can't figure it out, still look like arrow flying around to me I only understand that the thick arrow is the main/big rock and the thin arrow is the small rock, other than that I'm at lost. Please enlighten me

I'm still pondering
1) what is consider to be desirable flow?
2) does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or
3) does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?

[Fuzzy]

To quote Amano from the Aquajournal article:
"You cannot produce a good Iwagumi unless you work at a quick pace, building momentum. When you take time and think about it too much, it often turns into a dull and unnatural looking layout, lacking a sense of rhythm. However, there were times that I rearranged rocks this way and that way for hundreds of times. I often worked late into the night until I was satisfied and then found the work quite disappointing the next morning. Having experience and instinct sometimes count more than the artistic sense when arranging rocks. Although I think that the artistic sense is important in the end, it is important to first have confidence in your idea that “rocks will appear this way when placed like this”. When you gain experience and develop your instinct, you will gain speed and a sense of rhythm, which will enable you to create an unstable, difficult, and delicate composition that renders the powerfulness and the sense of stability of nature."

- http://www.aquajournal.net/room/iwagumi_philosophy.html

That said, this isn't something I can do, but interesting point to note nonetheless.

[ranmasatome]

Since we are talking about flow, what is consider to be desirable flow? To me it is just bunch of arrow flying around. What is a good flow suppose to be? does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?

The arrows are supposed to convey a general sense of direction. If you look around you in nature, you will notice that most things have a sense of direction (grains of a tree, veins in a leaf, compound leaf formation, mountain formation, forest trees, waves in the sea, rocks on a beach etc.etc.) and although they may not agree with each other all the time, they generally contribute to a greater direction and/or focal point. I think this is why we find certain things pleasing to the eye. Its also why composition is so important when taking photographs.
Direction in nature is generally caused by the earth and its formation. Take mountains for example, when a mountain range forms, it doesn't just choose to form, its caused by tectonic plates moving (one of the reasons) and because the plates are formed in a certain way and they push a certain way..the mountains all form in that way.
Waves in the sea, wind blowing in one direction.
Grains of a tree, water movement in the stem (generally).
As seen, there always is a greater force driving the formation of what we deem as pleasing to the eye. Of course in nature, there is that odd one or 2 that defies this direction but those are usually the smaller ones. The greater overall picture still "flows" with this "greater force"
Like i said loh, i don't know how to explain "flow"...and as above, no, not all the arrows have to be pointing the same direction all the time or opposite direction all the time. i dont want to make this too technical as scaping is about appreciating nature, and it would be sad for scapers to calculate everything because nature doesn't calculate, it flows.
Personally, as a general rule of thumb, that can be broken..haha..
1) i decide on a focal point
2) decide what i want to do at that focal point (leave blank?, plant plants?)
3) arrange rocks to complement it (rocks can lead the eye out from focal point or point to this focal point - general larger direction)

If you have decided on one general flow direction..
Rocks laid flat - generally have a "low profile" and tend to be secondary points of focus - meaning your eye will only notice them later when you appreciate the larger general scape. They contibute to the larger form of the tank and give support to the entire scape. Sometimes they can also be used to mute a scape that is too strong.
Rocks pointing in that general direction of flow - will enforce it, most times the focal rock will support this flow direction. Please note that rock direction and flow direction is different hor. Rock direction is just which direction the rock is "pointing". Flow direction a larger general sense of where ALL the rocks are leading your eye to... most times this is the focal point.
Rocks pointing against the general direction of flow - will mute it, you will notice these rocks if they are too big and if too many are used in opposing directions, the flow of the tank will change. Most times these are the smaller rocks. In nature there will always be 1 or 2 or 3 or some..but its almost never smack in the most noticable area unless they are small or very small.
That said, this is only one facet of the issue. There is also influence through planting and planting methods.
You should know mah... your scape really is quite natural and nice.
of course this is the first time i'm typing this out.. never really though about it actually..haha.. just do and see nice a not.
Sometimes people like amano are lucky in this aspect. If you spend a lot of time in nature like me...since i work in the forest all my life... it will come naturally to you...some others simply have a knack for this (like you)... others simply can't get it...
To the last group... i hope this helps...but most importantly loh...like what amano said also... just enjoy this hobby lah... don't think so much.. its supposed to be enjoyable!!

[Shadow]

Honestly I don't know, when I scape, I just do without much of thinking beside golden rule. The problem is when somebody ask me to improve his/her scape, I also do not know how to answer beside nice or not nice . That is why when there is spacing discussion I normally jump in and asked question

[Navanod]

Hi

I have a couple of questions and thought you might be able to help clarify:

1) Is the foam going to stay in the tank?
2) Will it float or cause movement to your soil and rock since it going to float?3) Will it have any side effects? I meant it will be exposed to water for a long time. Any chemicals that might dissolved into the water after a long exposure to water?
4) What was the foam formally used to pack? Safe for fishes?

Sorry, I am just curious. Thanks for your time.

1. It has to! Its buried for good once I'm done scaping
2. It's able to float but not with so many rocks and soil sitting on it. At the moment, the only side effect is that it may prevent water from flowing under the substrate and creating anaerobic dead zones within the soil.
It may also sag with time, causing the scape to collapse.
Chemical-wise, I'm not sure...I removed most of the glue residues and only use the foam, which is hopefully inert.
4. The foams were cushions packed around metal racks and shelves that was being shipped in from overseas. Nothing dangerous or harmful. I had washed them many times before using them

To quote Amano from the Aquajournal article:
"You cannot produce a good Iwagumi unless you work at a quick pace, building momentum. When you take time and think about it too much, it often turns into a dull and unnatural looking layout, lacking a sense of rhythm. However, there were times that I rearranged rocks this way and that way for hundreds of times. I often worked late into the night until I was satisfied and then found the work quite disappointing the next morning. Having experience and instinct sometimes count more than the artistic sense when arranging rocks. Although I think that the artistic sense is important in the end, it is important to first have confidence in your idea that “rocks will appear this way when placed like this”. When you gain experience and develop your instinct, you will gain speed and a sense of rhythm, which will enable you to create an unstable, difficult, and delicate composition that renders the powerfulness and the sense of stability of nature."

- http://www.aquajournal.net/room/iwagumi_philosophy.html

That said, this isn't something I can do, but interesting point to note nonetheless.

I read that too! I even tried waking up in the middle of the night to do scaping hoping to get some inspirations! But like the grand master, I woke up the next day and the work looked horrid

You able to grasp these arrow thinggy that Ranmasatome draw? I can't figure it out, still look like arrow flying around to me I only understand that the thick arrow is the main/big rock and the thin arrow is the small rock, other than that I'm at lost. Please enlighten me

I'm still pondering
1) what is consider to be desirable flow?
2) does most of the arrow need to be pointing at the same direction? or
3) does it need to be pointing at the opposite direction?

Not fully understood but because I already had a rough idea, I realized why the vision looked so good in my mind. Because the flow was supposed to be going upwards from right to left and then back to right till it ends at the tip of the peak, hence the name "Greater Heights". How to achieve this flow is another story altogether though...

[ranmasatome]

Yes, i understand, i also just scape and see nice a not..but then to help people in their scape, just saying nice... or not nice..not really any help mah. If we want to improve the aquascaping scene/ help people scape, we must start to think why some things are nice.. and why sometimes the scape isn't as much as it can be. Ask question is good.. you don't ask i also would never have asked myself..haha..

[ranmasatome]

Nav,

Would the foam be an issue next time when you need to do planting?
Would the plants suffer because of the shallow soil?
Would the plants be easily dislodged?
What happens if some of the soil shift and the foam is seen later when the tank is already fully set up?

Just thought i'd raise up some things to consider.

For your "flow" issue..This is what i interpret you to be saying...

The cyan big arrow is your general larger direction of "flow" in the rocks you want to convey.
1 simple question...
In an iwagami, what is your biggest asset? - SPACE.
Look at the picture that inspired you again... where is the space? where is the general larger direction of flow? can you get a better feel of it now? Your inspired picture makes me look at the space of the plains and the sky. Your current scape makes me look at your limitation... the side glass panel? With 2 much weaker rocks trying to highlight your biggest asset. Scaping in a fish tank is like taking a picture, we are limited by the four sides, anything beyond that we cannot see. So in your picture.. what do you want to highlight? Your limitation or your biggest asset?
Hope that helps.

[Navanod]

Nav,
For your "flow" issue..This is what i interpret you to be saying...

The cyan big arrow is your general larger direction of "flow" in the rocks you want to convey.
1 simple question...
In an iwagami, what is your biggest asset? - SPACE.
Look at the picture that inspired you again... where is the space? where is the general larger direction of flow? can you get a better feel of it now? Your inspired picture makes me look at the space of the plains and the sky. Your current scape makes me look at your limitation... the side glass panel? With 2 much weaker rocks trying to highlight your biggest asset. Scaping in a fish tank is like taking a picture, we are limited by the four sides, anything beyond that we cannot see. So in your picture.. what do you want to highlight? Your limitation or your biggest asset?
Hope that helps.

Yes, all your concerns bout the foam and shallow soil is valid and did cross my mind. Initally, I only planned to have 1 or 2 big pieces at the bottom to cushion the big rocks...but looks like I went overboard in my bid to create a high slope and to reduce weight!
Will replace with the lava rocks instead

Your interpretations of the flow I had in mind is 100% correct! And I understand what you meant about pointing at the side glass!! I had wanted a very steep fall off the tip of that rock to make it look very high and deep, but I didn't consider that the eyes will not follow the fall, but where the rock is pointing!

What if I move that big rock to the right instead like this?

[ranmasatome]

Looks much better to me.
A point to note for Depth...
Don't let the big rock be the Last rock in the horizon.
thats all i'll say for now.. you can figure it out..and you'll also probably realise why yourself when you do. (back to inspiring picture)

[comet]

wa wa wa. I am really learning alot from the post. I hope I can applied what I read today onto my tank. Will redo a study of my tank again.

[Shadow]

sure can , just reascape your tank and take photo along the way.

[StanChung]

I think all scapes benefit from patterns in nature. Some patterns like the main rock type are borne from opposing tectonic plates pushing against each other causing one main rock to point upwards.

Your current ideas are close to a concentric ring type scape. Also a natural phenomenon. Like a bunch of rocks falling in a concentric ring radiating from an imaginary centre.[probably from a meteor strike?]

In art school/class, you learn perspective.
1 point perspective-all lines come from this point. A lot of my scapes are one point only surprisingly. View from your tank straight on.
2 point perspective-lines come from two points. Architectural artist impressions always have this view. The view of your tank at 45º angle from the side.
3 point perspective-lines come from 3 points. A very 3D look. A view of your tank 45º from the side and also 45º higher.

How about 4D? Well, buying numbers isn't my thing.
4th dimension is 'science' I think and not relevant to us at this point in time!

The most important point is that the 'points' themselves can be set very very very far away or right in the middle of the tank or as it often is, at the golden section.

Example- For those with all arrow pointing up, it just means the perspective point is very very far down-as far as the center of the earth till all the arrows look parallel where your tank is.

So if you arrange the things in your tank to match the perspective will it be a good design?
It's only the BASIC!
To get a good design you will need more research into natural formations and also creating optical illusions-though overdoing this is tacky IMO

Open your mind to determine the scale and from there you can see the pattern.
I sit in front of my tank for hours when the mood gets me and I see a lot of patterns.

It's also good to go to a shop that has a lot of nice aquascaping materials and openly 'stare'.