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I hope this link can help your doubts.
Dear forumers
I have some basic questions in regards to sump, hope we could discuss and learn some things from the seasoned reefers here.
1) Assuming you have a skimmer, denitrator, fluidised bed reactor (phosphate reactor), calcium reactor with CO2 tank, plantkon breeder, which one of these should preferably be inside the sump? or it actualy doesnt matter.
2) Anyone could point out why some designs of sumps lead to microbubbles?
3) how to avoid micro bubbles and solutions
4) noise level from water inlet, how to minimize them?
5) anyone can share their arrangement of their sumps? preferably with pictures
Sumps are a big and important part of the reef aquarium, and since its usually hidden, some may think its of less importance.
Also i noticed that those of us who buy a full marine setup, the sump has already been pre-fabricated which eventually limit the type of equipment we can incorporate and also from pictures, these sumps usually have no space for refugium
Thanks for the link to such an informative thread
Think everyone should read it, probably gonna read this late into the night today.
But I fail to find recommendations of whether the various reactors should be inside the sump or not.
I know many reactors have both options of being inside or outside the sump, is there any benefits or problems associated with them either being inside or outside?
What about you guys? Is your setup leaning more towards keeping the reactors within the sump or?
I do not use any reactors, but I would guess the greatest advantage would be leak safe, and the greatest disadvantage probably taking huge amount of space and maintenance inaccessibility.
Baton courtesy.....service with a smile!
My 2 cts.Originally Posted by samhon
Dear forumers
I have some basic questions in regards to sump, hope we could discuss and learn some things from the seasoned reefers here.
1) Assuming you have a skimmer, denitrator, fluidised bed reactor (phosphate reactor), calcium reactor with CO2 tank, plantkon breeder, which one of these should preferably be inside the sump? or it actualy doesnt matter.
2) Anyone could point out why some designs of sumps lead to microbubbles?
3) how to avoid micro bubbles and solutions
4) noise level from water inlet, how to minimize them?
5) anyone can share their arrangement of their sumps? preferably with pictures
Sumps are a big and important part of the reef aquarium, and since its usually hidden, some may think its of less importance.
Also i noticed that those of us who buy a full marine setup, the sump has already been pre-fabricated which eventually limit the type of equipment we can incorporate and also from pictures, these sumps usually have no space for refugium
1a) Skimmer best to be in sump. If it overflow, the sump would catch the waste, rather than it spill onto the floor and getting into the carpet or your speaker system etc,etc,etc. If it was placed outsump and tragedy happen, your partner/parent might put a stop to your hobby.
1b) Denitrator and fluidised media reactor should also be in sump due to the threat of leakage.
1c) Calcium reactor depending on size. If it's small and there's still space in the sump after the skimmer, denitrator and fluidised media reactor, you could add into the sump. If it's large model, which when filled with water is impossible to be manuvered out of the sump, suggest placed it out sump. Calcium reactor need to be maintained periodically or need to be moved if it is overdosed by co2 gas. Branded calcium reactor rarely leak, with the upmost care taken to maintain it, so placing it out sump might be ideal.
1d) Plankton breeder should be placed out sump due to fear of contamination from the main tank water, difference in temperature requirement and ease of mobility. You do not want the tank water to get into these setup as whatever living organism in the tank water might consume whatever you are trying to grow. Certain planktonic animal do not require cooler temperature to raised them, unlike the temperature that you maintain the tank to grow coral. And some might need 16hr lighting schedule and the long light timing might not be good to be exposed to the sump as light would encourage coralline algae to grow and fluorish in the sump, which might impair your equipment such as pump to operate efficiently.
2) It's not the design that is usually the problem but user error. Sometimes, newbie might made the mistake of using high flow return pump through the sump. When water have to move quickly over barrier, it tend to create bubbles where the barrier are. Using a slower flow, it help to disperse the bubbles before the bubbles are transported to another compartment due to high flow. Having space between the sump compartment would ensure that this occurence is kept to a minimun.
3) My advise is slow flow in the sump.
4) Google Durso Standpipe.
5) I have no camera.
It is better to customized your tank, cabinet and sump to fit your requirement. There are no straight hard and fast rule to having a customized tank. You could have it done differently. Let's take mine for example, I have a 4x2x2ft tank with a 3ft sump and a larger, longer cabinet, a 6ft cabinet. I went with the out of the box thinking, I have a special need for my situation. I am not saying my set up is the best but it is a fit for my need. My advise is really take your time to plan for your set up. Don't be afraid to ask question and please be honest and truthful.
Hope this helps!
If you've learnt, teach, if you have, give.
Don't walk behind me as I might not lead, don't walk in front of me as I might not follow. Walk beside me, as my friend.
Mohamad Rohaizal is my name. If it's too hard, use BFG. I don't mind.
Dear BFG,
those were very helpful insights and clearly words of wisdom from an experienced reefer.
Could i seek some clarifications on some of the pointers you shared
1d) your suggestion of keeping the plankton breeder outside of the sump due to lighting issues, leading to coraline growing in the sump thus affecting the various pumps/ equipments in the sump area; would this also be an issue for hobbyist who runs a refugium with lights on?
That was certainly something that makes a lot of sense but for new beginners like us, we tend to overlook such details. thanks for pointing that out
2/3) your recommendations against high return pump thus leading to slower flow in the sump, could you give us a rough idea on how slow it should be with respect to the total volume of water? how many times should that be of the total volume of water?
I am really interested to see your sump
I am kinda weird, I enjoyed looking at sumps as much as FTS
Thanks!
Baton courtesy.....service with a smile!
1d) Usually, a purely refugium compartment do not contain equipment, just the algae and coral rubble in that compartment. Why I warned not to have light in the sump to grow planktonic animal is that coraline can grow anywhere there is light. If you have a skimmer, fluidised media reactor, calcium reactor and anything that hold saltwater, coralline will grow on the surface of that container or even in the container if the container is transparent. Coraline growing in the skimmer body will hamper the skimmer production due to the fact that the internal part of the skimmer is rough and not as smooth as it original came. How much will the performance of the skimmer drop, nobody knows but it's a good practise to keep your equipment clean.
Also, a sump is an ideal place to house bacteria housing media such as Biohome. For a most effective practise, these area need to be in a dark place in the sump in order for the bacteria population to grow. Lights, on a prolong duration of say 16hr, might hamper bacteria production. You can have light to illuminate the sump but do not switch it on for a long duration.
2/3) Personally, I choose a return pump that has the same flow rate as my skimmer. I am currently using a Bubble King SM 250 for my tank and my return pump is a Eheim 1262. A skimmer function is to remove waste, so I am maximising the intake of the skimmer. BK SM250 pump flow rate is 3000lt/hr and Eheim 1262 flow rate is 3400lt/hr. I go by these set up due to experience. Previously, I was using Deltec APF600 with an Eheim 1250 feed pump, 1200lt/hr and a Red Dragon 8 2m3 return pump at 8000lt/hr. Since the feed pump to the skimmer is only 1200lt/hr but the flow from the return pump is 8000lt/hr, you can guess that although nutrient removal was at it maximum ( my skimmate was similar to kopi-o color, black and smelly), the algae took root in the display tank as the nutrient in the water kept passing by the skimmer and back to the display tank for the algae to feed and grow. With the current set up of the SM250 and Eheim 1262 as return pump, maximise water is going into the skimmer, producing muddy paste like skim mate while algae growth is kept minimum, near the surface of the water ie, on the wave maker and overflow comb. Try to find as close combination as possible in relation to the skimmer pump and return pump. That means, choosing a skimmer 1st and get a return pump with as close flow rate to the skimmer pump as possible. I would not try anything below 1000lt/hr, unless it's a small tank.
A slow flow rate through the sump has an added advantage ( to me ) that is detritus will settle in the sump more than the tank. While changing water, I could siphon out all the detritus that have settled in the sump. Having wave maker in the display tank that is set to flow above 60 percent of the possible maximum flow, the detritus in the display tank is kept afloat in the water column until they go down to the sump. If they miss the skimmer, they would float away to a slow flow area and settle there.
You are not weird, when I was researching for my set up, my main concern while looking at marine forum was not how the display tank looks like but what is the minimum equipment I can use. I read and read at various forum for about 2 years to get an understanding on how to maintain a saltwater tank and what equipment is needed. Bought a lot of 2nd hand stuff at 1st to lower the cost, some purchase were good and some were not needed at all. May 2006 is when the tank started and every year, I would change the aquascape as it was not what I was after. This year is no different, my tank is undergoing changes, not much coral. Most of the coral died due to me being in and out of hospital due to my back injury and my parent only knew how to feed the fish. I was lucky to have the foresight to have purchase an oversized skimmer so the death of the coral did not crash the tank. All that was left are fishes and coral skeleton.
My favourite tank, little equipment used, some I have already.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-07/totm/index.php
Hope this helps!
If you've learnt, teach, if you have, give.
Don't walk behind me as I might not lead, don't walk in front of me as I might not follow. Walk beside me, as my friend.
Mohamad Rohaizal is my name. If it's too hard, use BFG. I don't mind.
Hi BFG,
first of all, hope that you will recover from your back injury asap, I have slipped disc, though its a mild condition, it can be very frustrating when I aggravate my back. Rest well friend.
I was just mulling through what you shared in regards to the flow rate of the return pump and the skimmer pump
you mentioned that since your skimmer pump is churning out skimmate while being fed with water at 1200lt/hr with a return pump of 8000lt/hr but you were experiencing algae in your main tank, suspecting that this is due to the fact that a lot of nutrients pass by your skimmer due to the relatively higher flow rate; however the situation was redeemed when you switch to having your skimmer pump and return pump having similar flow rate (3000lt/hr vs 34000lt/hr).
There seem to be 2 variable in this scenario
variable 1) the difference in the flow rate between the skimmer pump and the return pump
variable 2) the difference in the skimmer pump
Could it be that since now your skimmer pump intake is higher, more nutrients are removed, thus alleviating your problems? Sorry if I am proposing due to my lack of understanding of how flow rates affect skimmer
Really appreciate more to come in here to discuss
Thanks
Baton courtesy.....service with a smile!
I too, am suffering from slip disc. Just got my hospital leave extended till next month. The pain is not coming down and have only certain mobility with my left leg. Been suffering with this injury since May last year.
My thinking is that having a too powerful return pump DO NOT help with the maintenance of the tank. A lot of people thought that even if the skimmer miss cleaning on the 1st round, it will continue to do so in the 2nd pass and so on but I think that is wrong. This is not a 2-1=1 kind of a scenario. Imagine somebody pouring a big bag of rice and you are below cupping both your palm to catch the falling rice. Now, if that person cut a big hole on the big bag of rice and pouring it, you, the person cupping your palm to catch the rice, can catch only so much rice with your palm that you need to transfer the rice collected to another place to empty your palm and go back again to catch more rice. You already know your palm can catch only a certain amount of rice but you can't have more as the speed and amount that is falling is too much for your cupped hand to collect and empty it before collecting it again. You would miss a lot of rice this way.
BUT, if you could control the flow of the falling rice slow enough, probably cut a smaller hole in the big bag of rice, you could catch more rice as you know when to empty your cupped hand of the rice and come back again to catch more rice. This way, you'll miss little of the rice but you catch more from the bag. The rice you miss would be on the floor. Again, you could cupped your palm to move them from the floor. The small amount will be left behind when you couldn't collect them using the cupped palm method. You can't use your finger to collect the small amount of rice on the floor as that is considered cheating.
This is how a properly match equipment between a skimmer pump and the return pump work. The skimmer would catch a certain amount of detritus which the return pump push. Too much flow, the skimmer can't catch all of it. I hope you get the idea.
If you've learnt, teach, if you have, give.
Don't walk behind me as I might not lead, don't walk in front of me as I might not follow. Walk beside me, as my friend.
Mohamad Rohaizal is my name. If it's too hard, use BFG. I don't mind.
Hope you get well soon
and
Thanks for the analogy, sure helps,
I also chance upon the following information which echoes exactly what you shared
Flow rates in the sump
The perfered answer for this question is between 5-10 times the total volume of your water column.
More importantly it should match the flow rate of your skimmer.
Otherwise unskimmed organic laden water is returned to the lower levels of the tank where it has to slowly make its way to the top like I desribed in the above flow senerio. This gives algae a second chance to have another lunch
This is also where flow rates and directions in the tank also help in this particular situation by getting the water back up to the top and out the overflow faster again.
Flow rates both in the sump and the tank are very important in the filtering process
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...agazine&page=3
by capn_hylinur from reefcentral
Listening to both you and capn_hylinur,
This presents me with yet another problem, supposedly I have a water column of about 1000lt (excluding sump)
1) how much % of water should the sump have, assuming no constraints of space
2) The recommended return pump should be how many times of the water column? (assuming I have wavemaker pumps)
Thanks!
Baton courtesy.....service with a smile!
1) There are no definitive volume requirement to have in the sump BUT there is a need that your sump should be able to handle extra water volume should your pump lose power and siphon water from the display tank down to the sump via the return pump plumbing line. Too shallow a sump tank, the extra volume of water will flow out onto the floor.
1a) The design of the sump depend on the skimmer you are going to use. If the skimmer uses a feed pump, the height of the baffle is up to you. But if the skimmer uses a pump to pull in water and also create bubble at the same time, you need the baffle height to be from 8 inch onward. This kind of skimmer rely heavily on the depth of water. Too shallow, it won't work. So if you choose the baffle to be, let say, 8 inch, you need to at least double the height of the sump tank.
2) I've never calculate how many times my water volume turn over is. My return pump is closely matched to my skimmer pump. My advise is not to use the return pump flow to create water movement in the display tank. Mainly, the job of the return pump is to return water from the sump to the tank. The water flow returning from the sump is different than what a wave maker flow would create. So, never multi task your equipment. If your return pump fail, your wave maker would still provide flow for the coral and fish in the display tank, giving you ample time to find a replacement for the failed return pump. Remember, marine tank need constant water movement for the live stock. If the water remain still for a few hours, you are risking the health of your live stock.
It is now possible to have a skimmer and return pump combination that will not exceed 100w. I am heading in this direction. My skimmer consume 45w only while my Eheim 1262 is using 80w. I am planning to replace the Eheim pump to a Bubble Blaster HY-4000W model pushing 4000lt/hr at 45w or HY-3000W pushing 3000lt/hr at 40w. Our local power company usually raise the electric tariff every quarter so it pay to use lower wattage equipment that is operated 24hr a day, 7 days a week. Choose your equipment wisely.
If you've learnt, teach, if you have, give.
Don't walk behind me as I might not lead, don't walk in front of me as I might not follow. Walk beside me, as my friend.
Mohamad Rohaizal is my name. If it's too hard, use BFG. I don't mind.
thanks for all your inputs,
really appreciate them, hope all these information is helpful to the rest who are thinking of setting up marine aquarium
Another question related to the sump.
Internal or External Overflow?
anyone can give me links that I could read up a bit more in regards to this?
thanks
Baton courtesy.....service with a smile!
This depend on where the tank is placed and whether there's ample room between the back of the tank and the wall. An external overflow is highly preferred imo as it does not rob you of space in the tank as well as disrupt the flow of water created by your wave maker. You are not hindered when you aquascape your live rock as you could use the max space available. Your aquascape is not distracted with the overflow box in the tank as some reefer will feel the need to cover the overflow box with live rock in order to hide them. Here's an alternative to using an overflow box.
http://reefbuilders.com/2010/05/22/v...nterzoo-booth/
A close look at the parts.
http://reefbuilders.com/2010/07/05/x...ng/#more-20815
http://reefbuilders.com/2010/05/15/x...return-device/
This is a new product. You have to source for it online as it is not available in SG for now. This will prevent the use of an overflow box but it has it's limitation. I was told that each output will accept up to 2000lt/hr so depending on your return pump flow, you might need a few + 1( + 1 would provide an avenue if the rating was wrong and the additional 1 would still be an avenue for extra water flow to go to ). I wish this was available when I set my tank up back in 2006.
Here's a link to an external overflow design.
http://new.ultimatereef.net/forums/s...d.php?t=327630
There's a lot of design to choose from from the web. But you need to inform the tank maker to ensure that it would not be noisy. There's a flushing sound, kinda similar when you flush the toilet. Your tank maker, if he's knowledgeable, would know how to silence the overflow noise. Something like how this piping is done.
http://www.worldwidereefers.com/foru...coast-overflow
The 3rd pipe with the upturn pvc pipe is the emergency drain, useful if the 1st 2 pipe is some how blocked. The upturn emergency drain pipe will alert you when this happen as it will get noisy when it operate.
Hope this helps!
If you've learnt, teach, if you have, give.
Don't walk behind me as I might not lead, don't walk in front of me as I might not follow. Walk beside me, as my friend.
Mohamad Rohaizal is my name. If it's too hard, use BFG. I don't mind.
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