Red plant and lighting

[naturetan]

Based on your readings, your PO4 is too low for any NO3 uptake. Low PO4 is likely to cause your tank problem, besides CO2. If I'm not wrong, you should also have lots of spot algae. Think you should refer to Vincent posting for the remedy.

The test kit is also important. It helps you understand your tank consumption rate so you know how frequent you should dose.

I'm not sure why, my Sera NO3 test kit consistently gave me a valid value, unlike others. If you test your tap water, it is usually 0ppm. When I changed my tank water 50%, it drops somewhere between 0-5ppm. When I dose 8ppm after a day from water change, it gives me a value between 5-10ppm, usually 10ppm. Few days later, it drops to 5ppm or slightly below.

So I don't have any problem with test kit, since it makes sense to me. Perhaps, what is important is to stick to the timing when doing your test. I heard that if you past the 5 mins duration to read the color chart, the reading will go higher! Also remember to shake the solution vigorously to mix. If you're using Tetra Test kit, this might be a problem since the lower range is usually not accurate.

You don't have to worry about algae problem at NO3 going high. Your tank is nutrient deficiency, not abundancy! Use Tom Barr's estimative method to dose if you like, it will nurse back your plants to health.

Just to add to PeterGwee elimination process, your filtration is also important. Make sure the water circulation is good by having enough flowrate, else plants will have difficulty absorbing nutrients. Also do maintenance if filter is dirty.

[geoffrey]

Tan, could you check and tell us your Sera NO3 kit's manufactured date and expiry date? I am strongly suspecting shelf life affects the reliability of test kits.

[naturetan]

CH6 02 (manufactured date?)
09 07 (expiry date)

Is this the reading? Got this from the bottom of the box.

[geoffrey]

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On 7/24/2003 2:30:00 PM

CH6 02 (manufactured date?)
09 07 (expiry date)

Is this the reading? Got this from the bottom of the box.

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It's a batch code. I have 2 kits, one expires 05 and the other 07. 05 is a problem, always telling me low NO3. Thanks.

[PeterGwee]

Have you guys try making standard stock solutions using distilled water to test against the kits for consistency? Oh one more thing, did you guys wash the test bottle/cylinder cleanly? Basically, I don't really trust the kit due to its lack of consistency and accuracy.

Tap water: Measured 0ppm
Dose approximately 5ppm of KNO3 to tap water: Measured 10ppm????
Dose approximately 10ppm of KNO3 to tap water: Measure 20-30ppm????

That is good stuff? [] ...Sera is good brand for other stuff but the kits are not up to scratch for this purpose though..maybe for extreme high nitrates perharps?

[robin]

Peter, could you explain the elimination process.

Thanks
Robin

[PeterGwee]

Simple....do a checklist and go through it to find the troublemaker.

1)Check CO2 (Is the CO2 level 20-30ppm throughout the entire light period? Do take note of non-carbonate system affecting the KH..peat and some pH up or down stuff comes to mind.)
2)NO3...Check with a test kit for presence of NO3.
3)K aka potassium..(Did you dose K with either K2SO4 or seachem potassium? 20-30ppm range is a good target to aim for. Use Chuck gadd's calculator for dosing with K2SO4.)
4)Traces 8-9ml of Sera Florena 2-3X a week depending on whether growth is good.
5)Phosphate..check for presence with a kit..or do an estimate dose of 1-2ppm dose per week spread out 2-3X per week or one big dose. (This does not cause algae and as long as other nutrients are in placed, it will be uptake at a 10:1 rate with respect to nitrate.)

If anything goes wrong, go back and recheck as per list. Ignore the algae and look for plant growth. Trim and remove algae through weekly maintenance should make them go away once the plants are established and get a foothold on the tank.

[robin]

Sorry for the stupid questions but my question is

Is wpg part of the check list.
meaning is it possible to get a good balance with only 2wpg

My balancing ratio should be P:K:N 1:5:20 ppm right?

and also, people telling me to drop no3 to get plants red but others say more light and 20ppm no3 etc etc.

Appreciate all you guy's help.

Robin

[PeterGwee]

Enough lights is a thing to check also...NO3, keep it within 5-10ppm for best results. K (20-30ppm).

[vinz]

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On 7/25/2003 1:01:07 AM
...

and also, people telling me to drop no3 to get plants red but others say more light and 20ppm no3 etc etc.

Appreciate all you guy's help.

Robin
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Robin,

Fix your algae problem first then go for redness. It's easier to maintain your NO3 between 5 to 10ppm (in conjunction with balancing the other factors as well) to stablise your tank, get the plants growing well and reduce algae.

Once you have beat the algae, you can try maintaining your NO3 at the lower limits to induce redness. You'll need to be more on top of things, probably having to dose less KNO3 each time, but more often. There's a risk here because if the NO3 slips too low, you might end up with algae problems again.

You need to get more lights because your tank lights is low. Get at least 2WPG (according to tank capacity). Not to induce redness but because your plants need it.

So, the numbers you should be aiming for to beat the algae:
- 5 to 10 ppm NO3.
- 0.5 to 1 ppm PO4.
- 20-30ppm of K.
- at least 2WPG of lights.
- 30ppm CO2.

Don't forget your usual liquid fert.

Regular water change will likely settle any Mg or Ca problems. Don't fix this unless your plants show symptoms. If your plants are not growing too fast, this should not be a problem.

Less confused now?

[FC]

Robin,

Does your plants pearl? No pearlings are sign of (in order of posibility/importance):
1) insufficient light
2) insufficient CO2
3) insufficient oxygen containing nutrients like NO3, SO4, PO4.
4) excess of unconstructive nutrients

Generally, a tank with proper parameter should drive plants to pearl.

IMO, your priority is as follows:
1) reduce your KH from 5 to 2
2) add CO2 to drive the PH to 6.2~6.4
3) increase your light to at least 72 watts, 90 watts is fine.
4) change water 50%, add nutrients 1 ppm PO4, 10 ppm NO3, 3ppm MgSO4, some traces.

Given the above conditions, plants should show improvement within a week.

Note: Try not to use baking soda as KH, if needed, add to increase by just 1 degree. Use coral chips (CaCO3) which will provide both Ca & KH. Place about 30~50g in filter or on the gravel if the KH rises too fast/much.


Regards,

Freddy Chng
www.killies.com

[bclee]

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On 7/25/2003 1:33:56 PM

Robin,

Does your plants pearl? No pearlings are sign of (in order of posibility/importance):
1) insufficient light
2) insufficient CO2
3) insufficient oxygen containing nutrients like NO3, SO4, PO4.
4) excess of unconstructive nutrients

Generally, a tank with proper parameter should drive plants to pearl.

IMO, your priority is as follows:
1) reduce your KH from 5 to 2
2) add CO2 to drive the PH to 6.2~6.4
3) increase your light to at least 72 watts, 90 watts is fine.
4) change water 50%, add nutrients 1 ppm PO4, 10 ppm NO3, 3ppm MgSO4, some traces.

Given the above conditions, plants should show improvement within a week.

Note: Try not to use baking soda as KH, if needed, add to increase by just 1 degree. Use coral chips (CaCO3) which will provide both Ca & KH. Place about 30~50g in filter or on the gravel if the KH rises too fast/much.


Regards,

Freddy Chng
www.killies.com
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I think he has just enough lighting about 2W/gal.

BTW, not every tank has to pearl! Lower lighting tank grows as well without pearling. There are many fantastic growing tanks with no pearling.

AND pearling tank does not mean healthy tank... have you seen a algae infested pearling tank (even the algae are pearling!). Trust me it happens.

I don't quite understand your statement: "insufficient oxygen containing nutrients like NO3, SO4, PO4."
Why oxygen containing? It is the non-O part plants are going after (N, S & P). Anyway all these get reduced by plants when they are assimilated.

What is your reason behind this statement: "Note: Try not to use baking soda as KH..."

"Use coral chips (CaCO3) which will provide both Ca & KH."
That's is not the only why nor the best way. Sometimes you do not even need extra Ca.

BC

[geoffrey]

Look Robin, Vinz, FC, NatureTan, BCLee, Pete, myself etc in one way or another have indicated to you that keeping your NO3 and PO4 numbers low to prevent algae is not the solution and is purity pedantic.

No point in dosing excessively "unconstructive nutrients" when there isn't enough macros and stop worrying over the precision of your tank capacity and light. Just get it up to 3wpg, a bit higher or lower won't hurt.

Although you originally posted to find out how to get redder plants, Pete wasn't wrong to suggest lowering NO3 as most of us have read that it may help but I for one have not tried. However, that is only when everything is in order. Later when we found out along the way that you have algae too, and your nutrients levels are low and out of whack, that is when we suggested you improve on your fertilising. I guess that is where you got confused.

You can't get plants to grow redder when they are dying or smothered with algae. Or can you?

[robin]

sorry that i seem to be pissing some people off due to my lack of knowledge.
anyway, thanks for all the advice, I have done all i can and will wait for the result and keep you guys posted.

Raised my light to 3wpg, dosed the correct stuff and ph co2 levels are fine.

And yes my plants are pearling have have been doing so for a long time already, so are my algae.

Robin

[vinz]

Robin,

A bit over-sensitive? I don't think you've pissed anybody off. Don't feel shy to keep posting questions.

[bclee]

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On 7/25/2003 3:21:41 PM

sorry that i seem to be pissing some people off due to my lack of knowledge.
anyway, thanks for all the advice, I have done all i can and will wait for the result and keep you guys posted.

Raised my light to 3wpg, dosed the correct stuff and ph co2 levels are fine.

And yes my plants are pearling have have been doing so for a long time already, so are my algae.

Robin
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I was much worse than you when I started...

Nobody pissed... *look around*

BC

[geoffrey]

No one is pissed. Don't be too sensitive.

Do your own readings, ask if in doubt and we will certainly help.

[robin]

okay, thank you very much and will keep you guys posted on the progress.

Robin

[geoffrey]

If you stay on top of things, we will be expecting good news from you in 2 weeks.... and we will be waiting.

[PeterGwee]

MMMmmmmm...FC, how come you want robin to reduce his KH to 2??? GH is absolutely fine with singapore's tap..don't mess with it unless you know what you are doing. Dosing with just Mg is asking for trouble..you would need to balance it with Ca preferably in a ratio of 4:1. I did read that some people reconstructing GH to bring it higher runs fine for a period but suddenly the plants condition crashes. If you really want the GH, just do more frequent water change and it will solve most problems...Singapore's tap is not pure RO water..don't worry. If algae grows better during the initial period of upping nutrient dosage, it is fine. Just keep up with it and remove the algae during weekly maintenance.