Nutrient Overdose Effect?

[eric_kclee]

Hi, I saw many thread on how to dose nutrients, including of Chuck's page.

But I couldn't find any info on what will be the ill effect/sympton on plant of nutrient overdose.

like N,P,K,Fe,Mg and Ca overdose.

Can any one help to direct some thread or links? Appreciate if you could advice too.

[PeterGwee]

If overdose...

N: Algae outbreaks as high N destablize the entire system...causing critter health issues.

P: Not much issues as long as the other nutrients are in place. The only issue is that the KH value might be skewed at extreme phosphate levels.

K: Maybe over 50ppm might cause critter issues but with regular water changes, should not happen.

Traces/Fe: Should not be much issues here either except for the copper thingy..too much of it and you will have plant and fish issues.

Ca/Mg: Need to be in a balance ratio or else might have weird growths...Ca should be higher as always. Preferably 3:1...

[eric_kclee]

Thanks.

I currently dosing comprehensive fertiliser + ferros.
However I do not have PO4 or NO3 testkits. So I use observation on plant health as an indication.

I see good plant growth at initial stage, as I want to try the limit, I adjust to higher dosage. At one stage, I observed stunt growth and leave melting. Is this observation expected?

So far have not experience green water or severe algae problem.

[juggler]

I can't find links meant for aquatic plants. But here are some links for crops/land plants:

http://foliarfert.com/pages/TRACE%20ELEMENTS.htm
http://www.rodsgarden.50megs.com/plantnutrients.htm
http://www.uog.edu/soil/fertft1a.html

Please don't assume it is true for aquatic plants as well. Read and think about it and try out if you like.

[PeterGwee]

Macros are the biggest issue when it comes to plant growth. CO2 must be in good range for all this stuff to do its work though.

NO3: Get a kit to test but don't trust the results entirely...look at your plants as well. Some plants are good indicators of nitrate levels. Sunset hydgro is one which I use. Stay to the low side for NO3 but not too low. High NO3 will cause algae blooms...

K: Estimate 20-30ppm of dosing per week.

P: 1-2ppm should take care of plants uptake for the week.

Traces: You can try the 5ml/20gallons of water or test your plants response by varying the dosing but be sure to keep the N,P and K in good range during the test.

[theodore]

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I see good plant growth at initial stage, as I want to try the limit, I adjust to higher dosage. At one stage, I observed stunt growth and leave melting. Is this observation expected?

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May I know what kind of fert (traces, K, etc) did you try to increase the dosage? I seem to notice stunted growth, followed by melting, with my MMs when I increased my dosage of K from 10ppm per week to 20ppm a few months back. Then again, maybe it is just coincidence cos I increased it from 15ppm to 20ppm a few weeks ago and my stem plants, incl. what ever is left of my MMs after a major overhaul, seems ok so far.

[Plantbrain]

Higher than 440-600ppm+ Ca might be an overdose.I really have not found anyone's source tap water harder than this so I think it's very unikely to occur.
K+ will not effect plants that I've seen at 50-60ppm.
NO3 either(up to 75ppm) but algae will appear.
PO4, never found any level yet that's even close to what anyone would dose or tap water's ranges.
Traces, 4-5X recommended amount where not enough(Sera, Kent, Flourish, TMG)
CO2? 100ppm will not hurt the plants but might kill your critters.

Soil(MUCH more concentrated) and water are quite different when it comes to overdoses.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[eric_kclee]

Thank you all, I will like to clarify some staff.

My tank is a 14inch cube (about 50Litre water), with Tank CO2, 1bps
PH 6.6, KH 4-6, GH 6, Ammonia, Chlorine, NO2 = 0
Change water25% every Sarturday and add

a.) 5ml ISTA brand liquid fertiliser
b.) 2.5ml ISTA brand ferros fertiliser

(recommneded dosage for (a) is 10ml to 50L water, so 25% water change should add 2.5ml, however I imagine that the plant would have consummed some from the bulk of water, so I dose 5ml, 2.5 for the new water and 2.5 for whatever is consumed.

Initially the plant grow very well, as time goes by, I believe the nutrients has slowly accumulated due to dosage>consumption. Then the plant growth stunt or even melt (4color lily) especially right after I change water and dose nutrients, as the fertiliser wear out towards the end of the week, I see plant growth improve.

With every thing left unchanged, Now I change to 3ml dosage. Now the plants grow better and faster.

Thus I have a suspect that too much nutrient will stunt the growth. Try looking around for information on nutrients overdose but very limited so far.

Will like to hear your opinion on this phenomena. Thanks for your help.

[PeterGwee]

Think on the side of something missing instead. NO3 is the likely culprit for lack of growth.

[eric_kclee]

But, I didn't add any thing extra, just reduce the dosing, the plant then turns very much better.

Growth has improve visibly without additional dosage, just by reducing my dosing.

Thanks

[geoffrey]

Chances are something is lacking, especially in a lighted, CO2 tank. I would certainly want to think on the side of something missing instead. Nutrients build up to a level to cause mineral stress to plants can hardly happen with your water change done regularly.

Finding out what dosing ISTA provides to your plants will help clear some doubts.

[PeterGwee]

NO3 buildup from critter waste? Have you tested it? Was it missing after the water change?

[eric_kclee]

Hi Geoffrey,
My experiment just reduce the dosing, not adding anything else, if something is lacking, reduce it will be worst off.


PeterGwee,
I observed plant growth improve as the day gone by. And stunt growth right after dosing, sometime even brown leaf or melting leaf developed. If No3 accumulate, it should be be reverse situation. Agree?

[PeterGwee]

Mmmmm..that's weird. Try to monitor for 3-4 weeks to see if the cause is really overfertilizing traces which I don't believe to be so. It could well be something else or isolated case. Plants do act funny at times though.

[vinz]

You are probably low in something that is not in your fertiliser.

E.g. Say your NO3, K, Ca and Mg are all ok and balanced. CO2 and light is sufficient. But you are low on PO4.

You dose your ferts and they are balanced with everything but PO4. What happens now is your plant tries to grow at the rate that everything else supports but lacks sufficient PO4. You'll probably end up with PO4 deficiency symptoms.

That's just an example, but I hope you get the idea. Now you need to figure out whether this is true of your tank and what is most likely the missing ingredient.

[Plantbrain]

Often times folks assume that something is in excess.

But it's balance issue. As you increase the levels, you need to increase ALL ther levels to maintain the same balance.

Generally, I "limit" light. This makes the most sense.

CO2 is often a good one to look at very carefully before moving on to NO3, NH4(from the critters), K+, Ca, PO4 etc.

You also need good kits to make sure you don't assume the wrong things as MANY have in the past.

But if your goal is simply to have a better tank etc for what you have, then stick with your routine. Just make sure there's enough Ca, K+, NO3, and lots of CO2.

Give it time also.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[eric_kclee]

Thanks,
All of the comment are useful, It sound right too for balancing diet, just like human being. Its a relative thing. One can look at it as too excessive of onething and others can view at it as too little of the other.

One point still need to strenghten though,
I also into soil planting for many years, I learn that thru books and experience, too much inorganic fertiliser can cause fertiliser burn. As for organic fertiliser, overdose is OK.

Base on my experience on soil plant, I do believe overdosage of Fertiliser can cause harm (I mean over excessive).

[Plantbrain]

No.

The concentration is far too dilute to cause this problem in an aquatic porous substrate. The water dilutes things greatly.

Careful when applying aquatic and terrestial plant information.
They are profoundly different.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[eric_kclee]

Thanks,
Somehow all this discussion make me relise one possibility.

As I don't dose PO4 and NO3, when I do a water change, these 2 elements get diluted, in relative to my CO2, lighting and new dosage (when something is more, other thing relatively will become less)

Then as days goes by, the NO3 and PO4 build up, reaching a balancing state with other nutrients,light and CO2. Thus my plant grow better.

I hope I am correct as this explaination matches all the advices that I get about balancing and also matching my observation.

Moreover, my thank is so small 14inch cube, more sensitive to variation right?

Help to correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks to all the bros for helping a dumb head to undertand things that seems so difficult to understand.
[:]

[bclee]

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On 8/15/2003 2:54:28 AM

Thanks,
Somehow all this discussion make me relise one possibility.

As I don't dose PO4 and NO3, when I do a water change, these 2 elements get diluted, in relative to my CO2, lighting and new dosage (when something is more, other thing relatively will become less)

Then as days goes by, the NO3 and PO4 build up, reaching a balancing state with other nutrients,light and CO2. Thus my plant grow better.

I hope I am correct as this explaination matches all the advices that I get about balancing and also matching my observation.

Moreover, my thank is so small 14inch cube, more sensitive to variation right?

Help to correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks to all the bros for helping a dumb head to undertand things that seems so difficult to understand.
[:]
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It could also be that the plants are sucking up NO3 and PO4 faster than rate NO3 and PO4 is replenished by fish food and waste.(This is the case for most high light tanks.) You may result in zero NO3 or PO4 at the end of the week if you do not add NO3 or PO4.

BC