Brown algae problem on hairgrass/glosso; BBA on bogwood

[cheeboonyong]

Tank Dimensions (LxWxH): 80cm x 35 cm x 35 cm
Tank Volume (litres or gallons): 100 litre / 26 US gallons
Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) : 72W
Type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) : PL
No. of Hours your light is on : 8 hours
CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : 3 bps
Type of CO2 (DIY/Liquid/Tank) : Tank
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor): Diffusor
Substrate Used : ADA Aquasoil
How Thick is your base fert : None
How thick is your gravel : 3 inch at back, 1 inch at front
Liquid Fertilizers Used : TMG + K2SO4
Frequency of fertilization : TMG-Once a week, 5-10 ml; K2SO4-once a week one small cap (provided in Dr Mallick's container)
Tank Temperature : 28-31 degree celsius
Type of Filter (overhead/internal/canister) : canister
Filter media used : Ehiem 2026 standard media
How long has your tank been set up : 2.5 months
Other equipment : None

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can)
---------------------------------------
Carbonate Hardness (KH): 0
Total Hardness (gH): Don't know
pH : 4.7 - 4.8
NH4 (ppm): 0
NO2 (ppm): 0
NO3 (ppm): 0 (negligible under Sera test kit)
PO4 (ppm): 0 (negligible under Sera test kit)
Fe (ppm): Don't know (dose 1-2 drop of Dr Mallick MicroNutrients every other day)

Bioload (Your Fish and Plants)
------------------------------

14 boraras
6 apistos
4 otos

Tonina sp
Crypto unknown (small)
Water lilies x 2
Hairgrass
Glosso
Rotala Macandra
Lobelia something (dwarf form)
Blyxa Japonica

Describe your problem :

Brown fuzzy algae on hairgrass/glosso. As well as on tips of tonina sp and blyxa jap (not so severe). Most severe infestation is on hairgrass.

Starting to get small bits of BBA on bogwood and crypto, but not on other plants or equipment/glass.

Not sure what is the problem. My bioload is extremely low. Water change is every 1.5 weeks, 30% volume.

I suspect my problem is from low nitrate/phosphate, probably because my bioload is too low. I cannot tell if my CO2 is sufficient, because the ADA aquasoil has screwed up my ph/kh relationship, though I think 3 bps for a 100 litre tank should be enough.

Should I fertilise with KNO3?

Many thanks

[MikeKoh]

3bps is quite ok with 100 litres of tank. I suggest you check your Nitrate with test kit. And change your water at least every 7 days. For planted tank, recommend about 50%...tap water got trace elements which the plants need.

I just like to share my case. Like you I have the same type of algae on my hairgrass.... I try to tweezer to gently pick up the algae...but only stir them up to rest on another plant....and worst...uprooted a bit of my hairgrass... IIn my case my bioload is very high...so my Nitrate is at RED (sera test kit). Now... I siphone the algae when I change water. My frequency of change is 50% every other day when my Nitrate reading is RED. If it is brown...I leave it alone... I am trying this out and see what happen.

By the way, I just bought Algone from USA and I just throw in 3 puch into my sump. Will let you know what happen.

[cheeboonyong]

mike, thanks for the advice.

I try not to change too much water at one go. primarily because I don't want to upset my ph too significantly. My tap water ph is 7.3 while my tank is 4.7. 50% water change would wreck havoc with my ph.

As for my nitrate, it's zero AFTER testing with test kit. I believe it's due to my low bioload and no base fert.

In my old tank, I had very high nitrate like you. The problem came from my high bioload as well as leeching from my base fert. I believe that led to my huge outbreak of bba, hence my decision to tear down and start this new tank. I now delibrately keep a low bioload without base fert to avoid this problem. maybe too good at avoiding it now, hence zero nitrate.

Just curious, if I have zero nitrate, will my plants still bubble? All my plants will bubble like mad after maybe 1/2 hour after I switch on my lights. Trying to understand whether my nitrate test kit is actually screwed up.

[cheeboonyong]

and Mike, please do share your results on using Algone, not just on the algae but also on the plants. There are many people who believe that chemical solutions to kill algae will adversely affect the plants too. I suspose nothing beats trying the actual solution out to decide for ourselves. Thanks for being the guinea pig!

[PeterGwee]

Cheeboonyong, try to get your KH up to 3 at least by adding baking soda or coral chips. Your pH will swing wildly if there is no carbonate buffer to counter the acid added(CO2).

Algae issues? All things that you mention point to lack of CO2 and perharps lack of certain nutrient. Fix your CO2 first before any other thing or nothing will work. You can try the 1.6-1.7 pH drop from the initial pH without CO2 injection method as suggested by BClee but the KH must be above 1 at least. Once you fix the CO2, then I will suggest a routine for you to follow. Get the plants to grow instead of using stuff like algone...what are you trying to grow in the first place? Algone remove stuff like nitrate and phosphate which are plant nutrients...removing them is not going to help you grow plants...its going to kill them.

[wynx]

Boon Yong,

What kills algae kill plants too! I suggest you combat the situation, tackle the nutrient imbalance, instead of going for the off the shelf products. I witness tanks gone bust due to such addition of medication, etc. And, seriously, algae problem can be tackled but you must be ready to make some investment, both financially and of intellectually. Good luck in your combat then.

[naturetan]

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On 10/2/2003 7:14:56 PM

Should I fertilise with KNO3?
----------------

Yes, please start dosing KNO3 & KH2PO4. Ensure you dose at the right quantity using the Chuck Calculator. K dose 30ppm, NO3 dose 10ppm, and PO4 dose 1ppm. They're all saviour for your algae problem. Your Macrandra will also do better.

[cheeboonyong]

I suspect lacking NO3/PO4 is my problem. But seems like lacking CO2 may also be an issue.

Ok, now how do I tell for SURE that I have sufficient CO2? Consider my situation. I'm using ADA Aquasoil.

When my CO2 is off, ph= 4.9
When my CO2 is on, ph= 4.7-4.8

Perhaps I did not clarify my ph clearly. It is not from ph7 to ph 4.7 after I on my CO2.

The usual reason people add carbonate powder is to buffer the ph from swinging too much when they on their CO2. Given that my ph does not swing dramatically (yes I understand ph is logarithmic "sic&quot and that my fish do not react adversely when I on my CO2, I did not see the need to put in carbonate powder, hence my water is soft (close to 0 kh).

Now that I'm using ADA aquasoil, my ph/kh relationship table obviously does not work. I believe people using peat will experience the same set of scenario. How do I then calculate how much CO2 I really have in my water?

I'm using 3 bps as my gauge as in my old setup using this same tank but with normal gravel, I had acheived 20-30ppm with 4 kh and 6.3-6.4 ph, using the same 3 bps. At this moment, this is my only method of gauging how much CO2 to put in.

I think I need to solve this CO2 question first, before I can looking at whether NO3/PO4 is my culprit.

Appreciate all comments

[cheeboonyong]

Peter,

maybe you might have answered my CO2 question but I didn't understand you.

What do you mean by 1.6-1.7 ph drop from initial ph? Perhaps you could point me to the original article by bclee? I definitely do not recall seeing this post.

[PeterGwee]

Look at this thread...should help you understand better

[cheeboonyong]

As for the algone issue, this is my take.

I am on the side that believes chemical solutions will kill both algae and plants. HOWEVER, this is based on my logical thinking and based on what people tell me. My position is that unless I myself have tried it, I cannot definitively say that it works or doesn't work. Just trying to stay open-minded.

Hence, why don't we hear from Mike what his results are?

[cheeboonyong]

Peter,

thanks very much. Let me read it in detail before I pop more questions.

[PeterGwee]

I'll ask again...what are you trying to grow in the first place? Algae is a plant if you did not know but lack biomass and does not require much nutrient to stay alive. Plants on the other hand require much more nutrients than algae to keep themselves healthy. Algone removes stuff like NO3 and PO4 which are essential for proper plant growth. The point here is to provide all the necessary nutrients for the plants to grow well and to harass the algae by trimming them during weekly maintenance. CO2 and light are the two stuff that need to be address before anything as a lack of both would slow down nutrient uptake tremendously....its your take though..My algae problems are gone..no spot algae even..[]

[cheeboonyong]

mmmm... no spot algae...sounds like dream come true...[]

will have to start adding kh powder to test out the 1.6-1.7 ph difference test liao...

Will post an update when I complete the test. Probably will take couple of days.

[cheeboonyong]

Peter,

as I said, based on your logic, I completely agree with you on the Algone issue. All I'm saying is that sometimes we need to experiment before we come to a conclusion. Perhaps you might have already tried it for yourself but not for me yet.

In any case, I'm glad we agree to disagree. Like I said, just trying to stay open-minded...

And yes, I'm trying to grow plants, not algae .

[PeterGwee]

Just a note though...the leeching rate of the peat from aquasoil may vary so its best to keep a close tab on it. The KH must remain above 1 and best at 3 or above.

Get the KH up to 3 or above using baking soda or KH up stuff. Take a sample of your tank water and aerate it for half an hour. Take the pH reading..test pen is good for the purpose as the pH would rise to the highest point already..that is your ambient CO2 level. Drop the pH by 1.6-1.7 and that should give you a CO2 level of 20-30ppm. CO2 should be your biggest issue now and you should always keep a close tab at it. Nutrients are pretty easy once you had the CO2 nailed.

[MikeKoh]

Hi...guys...Just dropped my algone pouch a few days ago. Algone is not liquid form and it doesn't seems to be some kind of chemical (I wont add any chemical except fert into my tank...belief me). It absords ammonia and Nitrate. How it works is it absords nitrate which is the reason for most algae break out. So if you have a algae problem due to other than excess Nitrate, dont use algone.

My Bioload is really heavy.... but the build up of nitrate seems to slow down a lot after I dropped in 3 pouches of algone in my 6ft. The algae is not growing that fast anymore. I have to observe some more days to be conclusive.

Keep tuned.

[naturetan]

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On 10/3/2003 12:57:24 PM

I think I need to solve this CO2 question first, before I can looking at whether NO3/PO4 is my culprit.
----------------

Boon Yong, besides CO2, definitely NO3/PO4 are the culprit since you're running at 0ppm. Well, if you've time to see results slowly, and don't mind clearing those algae often, then take care of C first, then later the other, one at the time. But if you can't wait to see results fast, then start dosing all at the right level.

This is like if we have malnutrition due to lack of Vitamin C maybe, we don't just stuff ourselves with Vit. C only, right? We still need a balanced meal, right? Take a holistic approach if you want faster result. Just a suggestion.

BTW, you don't even have NO3 & NH4, what is there to "GONE"? []

[PeterGwee]

Naturetan, I cannot totally agree with what you are saying though. Yes, Boon yong might be running at 0ppm of nitrate but if the CO2 is very low so is plant uptake. Adding nitrate to the system is going to make things worse in this case. That is why we try to recommend folks to settle the CO2 first. With lots of light and CO2, uptake will increase by 3-4 times the normal uptake rate and that is when excess nutrients can be dosed and corrected with large water changes at the end of the week. Tropica has a good article about the importance of CO2...have a good look at that.

[naturetan]

I'm not saying CO2 is not important, it is. What I've stated is that if you want quick result, dose all nutrients at the right amount, including CO2. Tom Barr has repeatedly mentioned that for his several post in his prescription as a holistic approach, and I think likewise. CO2 is not a cure all solution.

I've gone through this stage before, work on CO2, doesn't work as plants keep melting, then add nutrients one at a time. By the time I completed adding all the nutrients and plants are showing great sign of improvement, it has already taken me several months. Well he can do that, but I guess people might have lost patience and dose Algone by then. []

Adding NO3 of 10ppm and PO4 of 1ppm will not cause any adverse effect. In fact, it's still very far from causing algae with such low bioload.

I've seen quite a number of tanks running at slightly low CO2, average light & fertilization, plants do very well wthout any problem. So what I'm trying to say is that CO2 is not the only nutrient plants need. If so, then I would be better off saving the cost of buying other fertilizers.