BBA

[N.I.N.]

I've got infested by BBA a week ago, and is now spreading to other plants.

I've read Chuck Gadd's article on getting rid of it. How effective is it? Any other methods of getting rid of it permanently? I'm not looking at fishes to rid of it cause it is only a temp solution. Better to rid if it from its origins.

I think it only began when I added JBL liquid fertiliser at 1/3 the recommended dosage for the 1st time, followed by half the dosage, and 2/3 the dosage. I added the liquid fertiliser cause my plants seems a bit yellow and some leave turn translucent. Should I have added it in the first place or should I used a diff fertiliser since my tank is not heavily planted.

Tank : 4ft x 1.5 x 1.5 (abt 1 month plus old)
Light : 4 x 40 watts, 9 hrs daily
Plants : 3 Hygrophila Corymbosa, 3 Java Ferns, 2 Windelov, a bunch of amazon swords, a bunch of vallisneria a,ericana, 2 nanas.
Fish : About 30 small-medium size fishes. Feeding once a day tablet or bloodworms.
CO2 : approx 16ppm during lighting period, no light maybe about 10ppm
KH : 3
PH : between 6.5 - 7

[budak]

Hi N.I.N.,

BBA is still an inconclusive subject...... both in its triggers and treatment...... Christel Kasselmann in one of her books observes a correlation between high Fe addition and BBA in her tanks, but she wisely does not regard that experience as all-conclusive. But she and other German sources (as well as some US notables like Tom Barr) agree that sustained CO2 (20-30 mg/l) injection will force back BBA.... although this might take a while (a few weeks at least) if the BBA growth is strong..... I personally find that weekly NPK fert dosing has no correlation with BBA.

For your tank, I would try raising the KH to 4-5 to get more CO2. Your lighting hours are a bit short though - the tropics would get at least 10-11 hours of sunlight daily.

For fertilisation, I now favour separate dosing of N, P and K with a good liquid microfert (Tropica Masterglow or Mallick's Lushgrow). There are some good articles in the Aquatic FAQ section on fert regimes.

I would also try to reduce bloodworm feeding..... i think their rich remains mess up the nutrient balance.

[ryan]

From the info you gave, what i can deduce is that you have too little fast growing plants or nutrient sucking plants in your tank. In other words, your plants don't take much nutrients directly from the water, or there are too little of such plants in the tank. Only the java fern, windelov fern and stem plants take in the nutrients directly from the water. the other plants like amazon sword uses nutrients from substrate as well and not totally from the water column. Mods correct me if i'm wrong.
Your tank is also relatively "young" and the base fert(if any) might still be in the water column, thus promoting algae growth.
What i feel you can do is do more water changes and test your water for the main causes of algae, namely iron phosphate nitrates.
Or. add fast growing stem plants or floating plants to suck out excess nutrients in the water.
the nutrient deficiency seen in your plants should be identified and dosed with the appropriate fert respectively.

just my 2 cents!
GOOD LUCK!
[]

[budak]

ryan,

I don't quite agree..... his plants like the Hygros and Amazon swords are hungry feeders and I think when you dose liquid NPK and micro fert, the roots/stems of aquatic plants will still absorb it. Ferns, though slow growing, are also fairly heavy feeders. In my own tank, I have no stem plants, mainly ferns, mosses, crypts and anubias, but regular dosing of nitrate, phosphate etc... isn't a problem. Though it's been said ad nauseum, I think NIN's Co2 should go up to at least 25 mg/l and be sustained there.

[ryan]

Alright, agree with you, however we can't judge very accurately as we do not know the actual amount of plants he has. They may be very scarcely planted right?
and then how would CO2 help the situation?

[budak]

that may be so, but a good level of CO2 serves both to fight BBA (though the exact mechanism isn't known, both authoritative sources and personal experience seem to point towards high CO2's effectiveness) as well as support the fairly high light level he has. That is also why I suggest that he start a steady, regular fert dosing regime.

The frequency and amount of fert one adds may depend on the species and quantity of plants in the tank..... but I don't think you can do much harm with keeping CO2 levels up to support high lighting.... i suspect high light with inadequate CO2 is more conducive to algae in general.

Aquarium and algae control isn't a precise science..... so some practices that could have been sacroscant for decades are being turned upside-down (10 years ago, few would dream of actually adding nitrate to a tank)..... keep up your feedback and replies (and I hope NIN will report on his progess) and we can all learn something through the discussion. Thanks.


Alright, agree with you, however we can't judge very accurately as we do not know the actual amount of plants he has. They may be very scarcely planted right?
and then how would CO2 help the situation?
----------------
[/quote]

[eric_kclee]

Learn this somewhere and tried it..still new...don't challenge me to explain...I know nuts....

Tried it and was successfully, so just post for your reference.

I have to stress, before you try this method, your CO2 and nutrients level must be in good range. And your plant must be healthily growing....Because algae can be caused by many factors like many others had advised...CO2 and nutrients and plant health...must get the basic thing right first.

This apply to tank that seemingly in good shape and plant are healthy and yet have BBA....

Your lighting is 9hours, I assume is 9hrs in a stretch.
Try to have a break of 4hrs in between..and try not to
have lighting more than 5hour in a stretch. For example,
you can set timer for 4hrON-4hrOff-5hrOn.

It says, 'algae disslike light break' oh yah! make sure during the light break, the tank still have some indirect light from the room or window...make sure it is not total darkness..which is bad for the plant.

[BFG]

----------------
On 10/22/2003 2:01:27 PM
It says, 'algae disslike light break' oh yah! make sure during the light break, the tank still have some indirect light from the room or window...make sure it is not total darkness..which is bad for the plant.
----------------

Speaking from experience, this BBA will become accustomed to the light break after awhile as do plants. I had a whole tank nearly covered by BBA b4. This light break will be more advantageous to the BBA as they could be more adaptive to lighting session.

Since rescaping and changing the lighting session to a 10hr straight iso a siesta session, lesser BBA has occur. Currently using ADA Aquasoil with JBL base fert. CO2 supply has been increased till the tonina bubbles too. Somehow or rather, the amount of BBA in this new setup occur less and away from the plants except blyxa japonica, which I figure to be a prime estate for BBA to occur and some dark color piping which I still couldn't figure the preference for BBA iso the eheim rubber pipe and some on the ADA gravel where there's less plant growth.

[eric_kclee]

----------------
On 10/22/2003 2:27:35 PM

Since rescaping and changing the lighting session to a 10hr straight iso a siesta session, lesser BBA has occur.

----------------

What do you mean huh?...some typo that make the sentence un-readable...

[PeterGwee]

Forget about the siesta thingy..it ain't useful at all. BBA is an will always almost be a CO2 issue other than high NO3(from biological process and not through addition of KNO3). With a KH of 3, dial your pH in to the 6.4-6.6 range with CO2 only and keep it there for the entire light period. Plant heavily if you did not and then dose nutrients to prevent deficiencies and do weekly large water changes to prevent buildup. Strong plant growth is the best way to beat all kinds of algae. It takes patience though..

[bclee]

In my experience, I have had 3 outbreaks of BBA all from different cause.

First was due to lack of CO2. I got rid for the BBA by simply restoring the CO2 level to 30ppm.

Second was due to lack of NO3. My NO3 dropped to zero without me noticing. After starting to dose KNO3, the BBA problem went away.

The more recent one was due to high NO3 and probably NH3. I got the N level under control now and the BBA has stopped spreading.

IMO, BBA outbreak is usually due to lack of CO2 and problem with NO3/NH3. It is less dependent on light and Fe.


BC

[wynx]

May I add that lack of PO4 is also a contributing factor in BBA growth. Anyhow, in my case, I am seeing less and less BBA now, last time all my nana leaves all got infected! But now, after keeping my co2 at 30ppm and po4 around 1ppm. Things seems to have taken for the better.


Just my two sens,
Edwin Poh aka Wynx

[BFG]

----------------
On 10/22/2003 3:17:03 PM

----------------
On 10/22/2003 2:27:35 PM

Since rescaping and changing the lighting session to a 10hr straight iso a siesta session, lesser BBA has occur.

----------------

What do you mean huh?...some typo that make the sentence un-readable...
----------------

What I mean? Which part? Was it the 'iso'? If it is, 'iso' means 'instead of'. So that sentence means after I had rescape the tank and using a 10hr lighting session straight instead of a break in between the 10hr lighting regime, BBA occur less. Got it?

[N.I.N.]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your suggestions. I will increase my CO2 for a start and increase my lighting hours to 11 hrs. I didn't increase the CO2 dosage initially as I figure that there's also CO2 coming out from the fishes so that might be enough already.

I've got a couple of questions :

1. Will increasing my CO2 above 25ppm harm the fishes? Actually, some of my plants were already bubbling with the previous dosage of 16ppm (2 bubbles/sec). Does that indicate that is it sufficient? I noticed that in some LFS display tanks, their bubble rate is 1 bubble every 2 secs, and their plants are bubbling like crazy. How does that work?

2. I did mention the amount of plants I have in my post. Budak and Ryan, will that change any of your suggestions knowing the exact amount of plants I have?

3. So do I need to remove any of the leave that has BBA now? Or should I just leave it to disappear gradually? Cause if I trim some of the plants they might become botak nad might not survive in the end. Last nite I noticed there are some BBA on the driftwood as well.

4. Does BBA spread with the water circulation? My current of the water coming out from the outlet pipe is very strong near the bottom of the tank and near the plants with BBA.

5. I could see the current flow all the way to 2/3 of the tank length. I was able to see the current due to the specks of CO2 or dust particles. Is that normal? I remember seeing display tanks in LFS with almost no current flow, everything seems so still and peaceful and water is very clear. Should I reduce the speed of the water flow?

Sorry for the long 'loso' questions.

Budak, thanks for the suggestion of posting my developments. I will definitely do that and hopefully will help others with this problem too.

[budak]

hi NIN,

CO2 from fishes is really not sufficient for planted tank requirements. Forget about bubbling as an indicator though - it just shows that the water is so saturated with oxygen that bubbles result. Use the KH/pH table to determine your Co2 content. 25-30 ppm should be ok for most fishes and even shrimps.

For your plants, it's up to you whether you wish to add more.... the advice on Co2 and a regular fert regime remains.....

You can trim off leaves with excessive BBA growth.... if the plants are healthy in the first place, new leaves should develop. You can try plucking off BBA from the wood, but after sustained CO2, BBA will tend to fall and accumulate on the gravel or just disappear.

I read in more than a few sources that BBA like strong water circulation. But good water circulation is good for plants as well. Stick to the adequate CO2/fert regime and i don't think you need to change your pipe position unless the current is actually hindering plant growth.

[PeterGwee]

1)No. No. Every tank is different....uptake rate due to amount of plants, light intensity, loss of CO2 through surface turbulence and etc leads to difference in amount of CO2 needed in order to reach the ideal CO2 concentration. At lower CO2 concentration, plants do grow but slows down considerably and that is when the algae starts to creep in.

2)I have no idea how much that covers your tank but try to cover as much of your tank with plants that grow at break necking speed. Should help settle your tank down faster.

3)Remove as much as you could and then provide enough light, CO2 and nutrients (N,P,K and traces...GH is fine for singapore's tap). Get the CO2 fixed and then think of the nutrients.

4)CO2..CO2 and CO2..its the main issue here.

5)Do not reduce flow..good circulation is good and helps bring the essential CO2 and nutrients right to the leaves of the plants. Plants can't move so it would take water circulation for the nutrients to reach them...bigger tanks like yours would need to look into this issue as well.

Just get the CO2 fixed first and forget about the nutrients for the moment. The plants just ain't going to use much until you get that fixed. After that, its just addition of plant food like KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4 and traces (TMG, Flourish or JBL liquid fert).

[Irwan78]

Hi guys,
Sorry, i got BBA too..its hurting my mosses and riccia.
Could you guys tell me where to get those nutrients to combat BBA?

And how do i measure co2 level in my tank.All i have is a co2 indicator.
How do i measure the co2 in ppm?..


Still a newbie

[squall99e]

----------------
On 10/22/2003 3:32:26 PM

In my experience, I have had 3 outbreaks of BBA all from different cause.

First was due to lack of CO2. I got rid for the BBA by simply restoring the CO2 level to 30ppm.

Second was due to lack of NO3. My NO3 dropped to zero without me noticing. After starting to dose KNO3, the BBA problem went away.

The more recent one was due to high NO3 and probably NH3. I got the N level under control now and the BBA has stopped spreading.

IMO, BBA outbreak is usually due to lack of CO2 and problem with NO3/NH3. It is less dependent on light and Fe.


BC
----------------

Does lack of NO3 cause bba?
Thought high NO3 or NH3 is the cause, which is why we use high CO2, ensure sufficient PO4, large water change and fast growing plants to bring it down.
I did discuss bba with Bioplast guy last week, he says that bba is due to high NO3.

[budak]

Well, squall, let's just say that what was once conventional wisdom (e.g. high NO3=algae) is now being reassessed as hobbyists look deeper into plant and algae growth factors (with no prejudice against the uncles at Bioplast, who maintain pretty healthy plants in their own way). It seems for BBA, NO3 is by itself irrelevant, but dosing it allows the other plants to grow at optimal rates (to the BBA's detriment). High, sustained Co2 levels also harm it.

[peterkoh]

try hornwort for 1-2 mths with regular water changes. worked very well for me in the past, inc those that formed on gravels. now it is coming back as i threw all my hornwort the last time round. anyone has any to spare ?

imho, sometimes it does get crazy ro be really scientifically accurate as one tank differs from another and there are just too many variables to play with. let nature takes it's own course and use nature against nature ie another fast growing plants like hortwort. a simple method also helps to keep the planted tank interest alive as I find it is really tiring after a while to battle against algae and wreck brain and lose sleep over it.