Looking for advice

[crandf]

Hi all,
I am thinking of starting another planted tank without fertilizer substrate, just fertilizer balls and gravel so as to avoid muddy waters when I move plants.
Any recommendations on good gravel(Vermiculite?illite?zeolite?) with high CEC and where to get them? Also, where to get cheap good fertilizer balls?
And are there any plants in particular that I should avoid if the tank lacks substrate fertilizer and/or has low CEC???

The tank is an abandoned 4x2x2 .
Is 1300 l/h filtration sufficient?, and what filter type is more suitable?

I'm planning to do DIY CO2, are there any problems with dispersing the CO2 uniformly in the water when the tank is so big?

thanks and rgds

[tawauboy]

you can have a planted tank without base fertilizer. inserting fertilizer balls or stick will help with your muddy water problem when you move plants but is not problem free. when you move plants, fertilizer sticks or balls may be pulled out as well and causes excess nutrients. so it is not a perfect solution. else you can siphon while you move plants to reduce muddiness.

planted tank filtration rate is about 2-3 time tank volume.

you’ll need >2 diy co2 bottle for your tank. you will face the problem of generating enough co2 for your tank rather having co2 uniformly dispersed, something which good water circulation will help.

[juggler]

There's a number of good technical articles at http://home.infinet.net/teban/ concerning substrates.

1300 l/h filtration should be sufficient as water is cycled about 2 times per hour.

DIY CO2, if connected to your filtration using a reactor, will be dispersed more efficiently and uniformly.

[ckll]

Sorry to hijack the thread a little, but I have a question regarding fertilizer balls/stick such as root monster. It appears that such fert sticks have N-P contents.

If one is already fertilizing the water column with KNO3 & KH2PO4, should one compensate by reducing dosing in water column if fert sticks were to be used ?

Thanks!

[juggler]

----------------
On 12/23/2003 10:56:56 AM

Sorry to hijack the thread a little, but I have a question regarding fertilizer balls/stick such as root monster. It appears that such fert sticks have N-P contents.

If one is already fertilizing the water column with KNO3 & KH2PO4, should one compensate by reducing dosing in water column if fert sticks were to be used ?

Thanks!
----------------

Plants absorb nutrients through both leaves and roots.
You can test the water to see if there is sufficient NO3 and PO4. Then dose accordingly.

[bclee]

Vermiculite, perlite, laterite are all used as base fertilisers and not as "gravel".

Most fertiliser balls will soon disintegrate into mushy stuff. You can try root fertilisers like ocean free root monster.

If you want to go for a substrate without base fertiliser, you can consider Seachem Flourite (visit www.seachem.com). ADA aquasoil is another good alternative. But these subtrates are much more expensive.

BC

[ckll]

Thanks, Jugg. I'm currently dosing into water column 10ppm KNO3 and 0.1ppm KH2PO4. However, I notice that my stem plants are not doing very well (MM, rotala indica).

So, I bought root monster and will be sticking them into the gravel during water change. Question is, is it a bad idea to just dose KNO3 & KH2PO4 as per usual without taking into account root monster ?

Err.. another question [] .. what's the guideline of using root monster ? Each plant-plot 1 root monster ?

Thanks!!

[wynx]

----------------
On 12/23/2003 8:45:23 PM

Thanks, Jugg. I'm currently dosing into water column 10ppm KNO3 and 0.1ppm KH2PO4. However, I notice that my stem plants are not doing very well (MM, rotala indica).

So, I bought root monster and will be sticking them into the gravel during water change. Question is, is it a bad idea to just dose KNO3 & KH2PO4 as per usual without taking into account root monster ?

Err.. another question [] .. what's the guideline of using root monster ? Each plant-plot 1 root monster ?

Thanks!!
----------------

Well, root monsters are meant for heavy root feeders such as echinodoruses...Some have achieve good growth when they stick root monsters underneath them. Another candidate would crpytocoryne species. Go slow as root monster can be very potent.

[crandf]

Thanks for all your help; more qns:
Since fertilizer balls are imperfect as well, then can pure gravel substrate work? Is a high CEC and fertile substrate really very important anyway?
I dun need or want fast growth, I only want my plants to look very green and vibrant. Is this possible if I only fertilize the water column, with a normal gravel substrate fertilized lightly with fish waste? If so, will algae flourish more easily, since the plants lack the advantage of a fertile substrate source now. Or will the plants be more desperate in fighting with the algae over the nutrients in the water?

Does anyone know if dwarf hairgrass will grow well under pure gravel conditions, given plenty of light and liquid nutrients?

And I'm thinking of including blue LED lights at night. Will the blue light cause insomnia for my plants, since photosynthesis uses blue and/or? red light?

Is there any way to confirm that I am buying E. parvulus instead of E. accicularis HG? I am suspecting that I bought accicularis wrongly.

Thanks again, I hope you dun find me troublesome

[crandf]

In Dr Mallicks website, vermiculite is described as "baked micaceous mineral rock with HIGH moisture holding capacity". I'm guessing from the description that it is a heavy silty material, therefore more likely to settle quickly even if disturbed?
Perlite , on the other hand is "light weight mineral rock with LOW moisture holding capacity", thus probably likely to form suspension and cloud water for days?

FYI, someone reported great results with lily pond fertilizer tablets and vermiculite, and the great thing is that those pond tablets are super cheap compared to the usual fertilizer sticks or balls. I think I got at least 10+ organic-looking big balls for $3+ at pet safari. So maybe it will turn to mush, at least there's much less mush compared to an entirely mushy fertilizer substrate.

[geoffrey]

Since fertilizer balls are imperfect as well, then can pure gravel substrate work?

Pure gravel substrate works with fertilising coming from the water column.

Is a high CEC and fertile substrate really very important anyway?

Personally I feel high CEC is not really important in an aquarium. The fact that aquatic plants are able to absorb nutrients via their roots and leaves. Furthermore dissolved inorganic nutrients can easily permeate into the root area within the gravels. Hence, this mineral ions need not be bounded to any high CEC substrate as they are always available in the water as salt solution. Just like hydroponics. Base fertilising is advocated by Diana Walstad in her low-tech tanks with no fertilising from the water column. That's another alternative.

I dun need or want fast growth, I only want my plants to look very green and vibrant. Is this possible if I only fertilize the water column, with a normal gravel substrate fertilized lightly with fish waste?

Only healthy plants will look green and vibrant. Healthy plants will grow fast regardless. However, there are some plants that grow slower than others.

If so, will algae flourish more easily, since the plants lack the advantage of a fertile substrate source now. Or will the plants be more desperate in fighting with the algae over the nutrients in the water?

Keeping plants healthy will keep algae at bay.

And I'm thinking of including blue LED lights at night. Will the blue light cause insomnia for my plants, since photosynthesis uses blue and/or? red light?

Plants need rest too or at least to reset their circadian rythm. Just stick to 10~11 hours of photoperiod. LED light will not be bright enough. Furthermore, it's not blue or red coloured lights, it's lights with wavelength in the red and blue spectrum. Anyway, normal daylight tubes will do.

Is there any way to confirm that I am buying E. parvulus instead of E. accicularis HG? I am suspecting that I bought accicularis wrongly.

DNA?

[ckll]

Thanks, wynx!

[bclee]

----------------
On 12/24/2003 2:04:34 AM

In Dr Mallicks website, vermiculite is described as "baked micaceous mineral rock with HIGH moisture holding capacity". I'm guessing from the description that it is a heavy silty material, therefore more likely to settle quickly even if disturbed?
Perlite , on the other hand is "light weight mineral rock with LOW moisture holding capacity", thus probably likely to form suspension and cloud water for days?

FYI, someone reported great results with lily pond fertilizer tablets and vermiculite, and the great thing is that those pond tablets are super cheap compared to the usual fertilizer sticks or balls. I think I got at least 10+ organic-looking big balls for $3+ at pet safari. So maybe it will turn to mush, at least there's much less mush compared to an entirely mushy fertilizer substrate.
----------------

Vermiculite when soaked in water will soften and break down. It will cloud the water. It is used as the bottom layer (loosely aka base fert) with a layer of plain gravel or sand on top.

Quoting from the article you linked...
" I have gotten absolutely superior growth (after having tried many other substrates with much less success) from the following formula. There are two layers:

For the bottom layer mix potting vermiculite (from any nursery)..."

"...The top layer is simply sand. You need about a 1 inch or more layer, simply to keep the lower layer from clouding the water. ..."

BC

[bclee]

Just to share some experience in using plain gravel as substrate.

My first setup was with plain gravel without any base layer. Many plants will grow pretty well in this setup. However, there are a few plants which do not respond well... like Lobelia cardinalis, a few Cryptocoryne sp.

Then I started inserting lots of laterite balls and fertilisers tablets. Plants like the Lobelia cardinalis, Cryptocoryne sp., Nyphea sp. perked up.

But as the substrate matures (about 1 year later), it is almost no difference from a substrate with base layer. I guess it is those stuff that I have added into the substrate that have contributed to the CEC and a good healthy colony of bateria that have helped.

I felt CEC, redox potential, pH in the substrate can contribute to the overall health of your plants.

BC

[crandf]

You guys are very convincing. Down with the *ites .
(I think maybe those companies selling base substrates have a global influence on the internet info.)

I think I'm going to use just gravel plus some pond lily tablets, similar to what what BC did [:] .