Killisfish Questions (Novice)

[SirBest]

After reading through the book recommended by Stormhawk by Steffen Hellner, there are certain questions that are still bothering me. I hope seasoned killifish keepers are able to answer my queries to the best that they can.

Naming Convention: I understand that it is of utmost importance and the reasons governed as to why killifishes fishes are being named in a scientific way but my question is under what circumstances where the scientific naming convention no longer holds its significance. For example if I were to take the same species from different location and breed them together, so what do I classify them as? Also assuming that some killifishes can interbreed, so what do I make out of their end product? I am not looking at answers like you breed killifish with killifish and you get killifish, but more of I want to know what such end products would be classifed as.

Breeding: In addition, am I right to assume that killifish breeding like most pedigree breeding is more accustomed to maintaining the integrity of the original line and keeping them as pure in a form as possible? If so, since such breeding is more tuned towards inbreeding principles, then how is it that the line can be maintain for a long period since inbreeding will almost tend to make the genes in the offsprings weak. If we were to outcross, where do we go from there? What if I am unable to attain fishes from the same location and stuff, am I right to say that I will have to make do breeding weak fishes and seeing the line degenerate right before me?

Substrate: It was mentioned in the book that killifishes prefer to breed in soft water and the author made reference about using a darker substrate and gravel but my question is what is the effects between using aquarium soil, for example, shrimp soil versus other gravel like aquarium sand?

Vitamins and trace elements: The author did mention about adding vitamin drops to provide a form of supplement to replenish the vitamins that may be missing in the killifishes staple diet so mind if I ask if any killifish keepers are adding any sort of such products for your killifishes, what brands of vitamins do you use? I am not looking at a list of products that I can use but rather what you keepers have ever used and what success it brings to your state of your killifishes.

I hope my questions do not bore anyone but it is more like I want to straighten out certain queries and concerns that I may have before plunging myself into them.

[stormhawk]

Naming convention: Unless you have 2 populations of the same species originating from the same geographic location - i.e. Bagamoyo with Bagamoyo, do not cross them. There have been attempted crossings in the past for scientific purposes but often the subsequent generation is infertile or die while in embryonic development due to "lethal" genes. Should there be any successful crossings of populations within the same species, in this case intra-specific between 2 different populations of the same species, they are considered hybrid forms even though they are essentially the same species. This applies to crossings between fancy aquarium strains such as crosses between australe Chocolate and Orange. In situations like this, they are just called by the species name, so if you had a cross between a chocolate and orange australe, the resulting fry are labelled as Aphyosemion australe, or Aphyosemion australe A/S with A/S denoting the fact that these are "aquarium strain".

It is crucial to ensure that your codes, if applicable, are always recorded properly, especially with egg collections and such. Any spelling errors can cause problems that we'd normally put down to being "lost in translation".

Breeding: Typically, most killie breeders are considered line breeders in that they keep their lines pure to the best of their ability. It is always good to spawn using a group of fishes, rather than single pairs or trios. In the wild, some of these fish come from very small geographic localities. For example, populations of nothos that do not leave their temporary pools at all. There is a species called Hypsolebias marginatus, which is an SAA and is considered extinct in the wild since the only known locality was destroyed for a plantation. All specimens from this species is descended from a single pair spawned by Brazilian aquarists. There will be genetic problems from time to time, which are weeded out by selectively culling those specimens. Killie breeders as a whole, get fresh genetic material from purchasing eggs from overseas sources with respect to the particular species + population they are keeping. For example, if you have a population of rachovii Beira 98, to keep the line strong you can opt to search for the population called Beira MT 03-1, since it being a newer collection, might produce better looking specimens. It is imperative for a breeder to refresh his lines after 2-3 generations since some strains can start producing quite ugly progeny after successive rounds of inbreeding. Of course, for this to happen, you'd need to get viable pairs since killies are known to produce highly skewed sex ratios. Good example would be my Hypsolebias flagellatus. Right now I have 2 fat adult females and no males to pair them with.

Substrate: Soft water vs hard water is dependent on the species you wish to spawn. Some will happily spawn in a wide range of waters, and others will be more picky with regards to water conditions. To answer this question, you must first know what species you are dealing with, where they originate from and what conditions are suitable for them. There is no side effect as long as you use pH neutral gravel/soil/sand etc as long as you are prepared to tweak the conditions to suit the species you are keeping. If you use shrimp soil that pushes pH down to around 5 to 5.5, you are restricted to black water killies like certain Simpsonichthys species, in particular, Simp. costai, and the ever popular Clown Killie, Pseudepiplatys annulatus.

Vitamins and Trace Elements: I personally do not add these but the suspected lack of Vitamin C, coupled with excessive inbreeding, can result in young fry having bent spines. I find it best that young fry are raised in a tank with some green water and a host of microscopic animals as a first food. Seems to give good results since the algae in the water can be rich in vitamins too. As for the adults, feeding them a varied diet of live foods would be best. Because the majority of killies are highly active fish, such as nothos, they require a rich diet based on live foods, especially bloodworms and tubifex. When keeping killies, having live foods is a must because the majority of species will not easily adapt to dry foods.

Steffen's book is a good first guide for most people.

[SirBest]

Naming convention: Are you able to elaborate more on the “lethal” genes? How am I able to conclude that a mishap is caused by non-other factors than the genes being incompatible? On the topic of “aquarium strain” are we in the position as hobbyists to name our own strain, meaning, the species name remains but in terms of population code, we can include things like Singapore, perhaps? Please do not take it as a “tongue in cheek” joke but rather with an open mind see it as an opportunity of creating a new species of killifishes and claimed credit as uniquely ours? Usually when you collect the eggs, I understand that there is an incubation period, should I be subjecting the eggs to a slightly warmer treatment like how they incubate chicken eggs or just keep them in an area where it is windy and the temperature is not fluctuating much.


Breeding: Mind if I ask as to what physical traits must be present in my brood of killifishes before I can truly confirm that it is time for me to start sourcing for new blood to be injected into my current blood of fishes before the strain eventually deteriorate into a point of no return.


Vitamins and Trace Elements: Jian Yang, based on my prior experience with breeding guppies, I am well informed to tell you that bind spines is usually caused by excessive inbreeding cause I have ever spawn several batches of guppies, albino kind, and the result was bend spines in the fries. This indicates to me that I have to cull the fries and use the parents to outcross to another linage of the same strain. Guess this is not as straight forward in killifish keeping. I noticed that you have mentioned a great deal about live food but no reference to pellet food. Pellet food not a very ideal for killifish?


Finally I would have to admit that Steffen’s book is a good read especially for novice like me but is there any more books to recommend to further wet my appetite?

[stormhawk]

"Lethal" genes are caused by "incompatible" genes that prevent cross-breeding between related species and/or isolated populations of the same species. An experiment was undertaken by Dalton Nielsen and Didier Pillet with respect to the magnificus group in the Hypsolebias genus of SAAs. See below for a list of experiments:

1) Hyp. picturatus male x Hyp. carlettoi female = unsuccessful due to zero survival of any eggs
2) Hyp. magnificus male x Hyp. carlettoi female = same results as experiment 1
3) Hyp. fulminantis male x Hyp. carlettoi female = successful but only males produced in F1 generation, no results for F2 since no females were present

Given the results above, even though magnificus, picturatus and fulminantis are closely related to carlettoi, the only successful crossing (albeit short-lived) was between fulminantis and carlettoi. It might be possible to cross a male harmonicus with a female carlettoi but the species is not available in the hobby.

Crossings between members of the Aphyosemion and Fundulopanchax genii were done by J.J. Scheel and documented in his book called Rivulins of the Old World (ROTOW). My copy is in storage and I don't wish to dig it up, but a search on Google may turn up the results of parts of his experiments. In the home aquarium, we do not advocate crossing species or populations with each other since the majority of killie keepers are purists to a certain degree. Aquarium strains however, are not uncommon.

If you have bred your line of killies for a specific trait, such as longer fin extensions, then you can append a breeder's code to it. For example, the aquarium strain of Austrolebias nigripinnis called RK99, developed by Kenjiro Tanaka for a more refined and spotted pattern.

The loss of scale pattern, color, bent fins and deformities in the progeny of any strain at home, will be indicators to look out for as to when to reinvigorate your lines. At this point of time, acquiring fresh eggs from other sources overseas for the same species + population would be best.

Bent spines can only be attributed to inbreeding as one of the factors, but not the single overbearing factor that causes it. Lack of certain vitamins, in particular vitamin C, can cause this too. Fancy Guppies suffer from issues with inbreeding since many lines are fixed only by selectively breeding sons or fathers to their mothers and daughters. This does not occur in killifishes as killie keepers generally do not let the subsequent generation spawn with their parents in the same tank, especially in annuals, unless circumstances means they have to spawn the sons with their mothers or the daughters to their father because of skewed sex ratios.

Pellet food is not recommended as some species do not react to non-moving foods. The larger species from the Austrolebias and Cynolebias genii are piscivores to a certain degree, so you must have life foods for them to eat. If you intend to give your killies pellet food, the best way is to feed the pellet food to grindal worms, and feed the worms to your killies. In general I find most killies do not react to dry food. Only some species like A. australe, Fp. gardneri and some Epiplatys that feed from the surface, will take floating pellets, while others will take some time to adapt to them. However, as a general diet, it is not recommended. Egg production in killies is connected to the presence of high protein foods like worms in their diet. Feeding them on pellets will not give the same result.

As for other books, I don't have much to recommend you at this time. The rest are literature meant for specialists since they will delve primarily into specific groups like Nothos, SAAs and such.

[SirBest]

Thanks for the elaboration pertaining to the experiment explaination to further explain the effects of "lethal" genes effect. I kind of understood it finally. Thanks again.

As for breeding matters, let's say I have 3 pairs of killifishes, should I be mixing all of them into one big tank and let nature takes its course of action, or should I be actually putting the 3 females together first in the main tank, while I separate the males up like bettas, feed them well and groom them to see which is the most desired amongst the trio and only introduce the best male in. What effects does the latter makes? Assumingly I am trying to only extract the best traits out of the 3 males, you reckon that will work? Or killifish breeding is like playing Russian Roulette. Lastly what is the best male to female ration when it comes to breeding? I hope not to over tire the male in this case.

Thanks again.

[stormhawk]

Putting 3 pairs together in a single aquarium will depend very much on the temperament of the species in question. In some species, the males will go all out to kill each other and/or drive the females too hard to the point of death. Best ratio for most species is a trio of 1M/2F. Group spawning works for most plant spawners but you have to deal with egg eaters.

Among some killies, a pecking order will form in a small group set up, whereby the strongest male will claim the largest territory and the strongest female may be the first one to feed. For example, in Hypsolebias magnificus, 2 males kept in a tank together with several females may fight to the point where the weaker male will be bullied and end up with ragged fins or in worst case scenario, death from starvation or injuries. In a group setting with many males and many females in a larger tank and several breeding bowls with adequate cover by plants, they will not fight as much. However, if you kept a single male with a single female, she will be driven to spawn daily and it might be hard for the female to fatten up. Separating the sexes before spawning may help in some species.

When I had 2 female Fp. nigerianus Innidere, the larger female would bully the smaller one at times, but never to the point of death.

Should you keep any killies in a group, never move any of them out and re-introduce back again, especially in highly territorial species. Doing this can result in deadly consequences, as documented by Leo Wurzer with his experiences in keeping Simpsonichthys punctulatus. He removed the alpha male for spawning in a separate tank and the remaining 3 males promptly engaged in a "deathmatch". The alpha male itself killed 1 of the 3 females upon introduction into the females' tank. It then killed the remaining 2 females over the next few hours.

[SirBest]

Fishes versus Eggs: I understood that there was a recent mass order of killifish eggs by members within this forum and that I was lucky enough to be able to witness first hand as to how the eggs were being transported from one location to the other. I also got my "hands wet" by offering to check for eggs within the peat mess where the eggs were housed in. After spending my precious 30 mintues, "ransacking" for eggs in 4 individual tubs, I gave up. But it sets me thinking too, what if (please dont hold be accountable) the mess does not contain any eggs in them and the seller is a despicable one. Wouldn't we buyers (just an opinion) be taken for a needless ride? I am truly aware of the long incubation period that the eggs would need to undergo before they can hatch but wouldn't this period be long enough for the seller to scoot off away to his safe hiding spot? The morale of this is how can I prepare myself better in making future purchases of eggs much more safer? How do I determine as to whether the seller is reliable or not? Based purely on his feedback record? Or is there a better way to make this whole transaction of eggs more pleasurable in the sense that both parties would be happy in the end.

For the topic of fishes, I have browsed through aquabid and came across several sellers (especially the ones that are selling very pretty killifishes) that do not provide any form of compensation should anything happen to the fishes during transit. So what can buyers like us do when making such purchases? Are we entitled to request for special packaging practices such as the inclusion of ice packs or even breathing bags to house the fishes in during transportation? If cases of dead of arrival do happen, and that the fault lies in the seller's way of packing? Do we really have to walk away with our big fat thumbs stuck right into our mouth or we can activate the lemon law.

[stormhawk]

When it comes to buying eggs, the risk of no hatch, bad hatch, skewed sex ratio, bad packing etc, will always be there. If you can accept that risk, then by all means order or get them on your own. Anyone who has dealt with killifish and bought eggs from overseas has had varying degrees of success. Fertile eggs can and will disappear for no reason whatsoever, even when locally bred, as Shi Xuan will tell you with regards to his Notho. kilomberoensis, so what more for foreign sourced eggs? If the risk is unacceptable then do not order, because most sellers will not replace eggs, or at the very most, they will replace it one time with you bearing the shipment fee for the replacements. This is of course dependent on the sellers, and the fish themselves. If they stop laying eggs or fertility drops, then there's little the seller can do. Should there be a replacement, there is no guarantee that the replacement eggs will survive, especially with long transit times that can last from 2 weeks to 1 month.

The lemon law does not apply to online purchases where the origin of the items is from overseas sources. You cannot expect compensation if the package was not insured. You can ask for specific packing methods, like we typically do, but whether the fish survive the journey, is another thing altogether.

[SirBest]

Eggs versus Live Fishes: Pertaining to the topic, what is the most perferred way of packing them especially for them to undertake one of their longest journey in their lifespan? How best to condition the fishes especially before they take this long journey and is their additives that we can add in the transport bag so that it help to reduce stress?

[stormhawk]

Typically, the fish should not be fed for 24-48 hours prior to being packed in breather bags. This allows them to clear their gut, and thus reduces the risk from ammonia buildup. Adding a little ammonia remover might be helpful but not necessary if the transit time is not longer than 2 days. The bags are then covered with an insulating material like filter wool, then placed in a styrofoam box. There are videos on Youtube on how people do this.

There is a product called Bag Buddies, which some people in the west use in shipping their fish within their countries:
http://www.petfish.net/reviews/bag_buddies.php
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...73-Bag-Buddies

[SirBest]

Any information as to how eggs are being packed and what should we do when receiving a package of killifish eggs? I overhead a conversation between 2 kind gentlemen talking about putting the eggs package in the fridge or maybe subjecting the eggs to cold water? Anyone is able to elaborate what on earth is this harvesting method about and what use is there by adopting such method? Thanks a lot.

[Shi Xuan]

Store the packet of eggs if they are annuals, assuming the collection date is somewhere recent. They don't eye up that fast but if they do, wet the peat "cake" and in it, the eggs with bottled water stored in fridge. I prefer to use cold peat extract because there is a less chance of belly sliders, at least from what I observe. Thereafter, I'll keep the tub under room temperature until I see little wrigglers popping out and I will only transfer them to another container when they are free-swimming.

Cold water has a higher oxygen content and therefore, minimize the chances of belly-sliding, which is a common thing among killies. However, belly-sliding usually happens when the eggs are wet too early or late and in the latter case, the fry are so weak that they sometimes die shortly after hatching. It happens. I wet a new batch of N.kilomberoensis eggs today, of which I received from Germany but because of the early collection date and long transit time, it doesn't seems to be doing well. I have siphoned out several dead ones just now and I really hope for the better. Therefore, check the eggs frequently and once the eggs lost their clarity/amber coloration and turns dark, the wetting date is near but wet them only when you see developed eyes.

As for non-annuals, wet them immediately upon receiving them. Chances are, the surviving eggs should be ready to hatch. However, in case the eggs are still clear, separate the eggs from the peat and transfer them to another container with some moss and juvenile shrimps. This water-incubation method has been discussed before.

[SirBest]

@ Shi Xuan: You mentioned about using cold peat extract, mine if I ask whether am I able to dilute black water extract instead and what is the recommended portions between black water and aged water? Also what is the preferred temperature of cooling I must achieve for this mixture, since you mentioned about belly sliding also. On the topic of belly sliding, any cure for it? If not, am I right to say we should culled away those belly sliders?

[Shi Xuan]

@Sirbest

Peat extract is obtained by boiling the peat several times and thereafter, the water that is strained from it. I don't know much about diluting black water extract but I don't think it will work that well. Eggs refuse to hatch if they are separated from the peat and wet using cold water. The peat extract helps in some ways. In fact, you can even pick eyed-up eggs (if your eyes are sharp enough) and wet them separately using simply peat extract.

I store the peat extract in disposable mineral bottles in the fridge, so I guess the temperature is around 18°C or so but anything below 25°C would be good. If you've read about SAA, the water is usually cold after a heavy downpour in the areas they inhabit, so mimicking the scenario would be a good way to reduce the number of belly-sliders.

Belly-sliders can be a result of genetic or environment but if you don't have a lot of fishes, or a species that produce skewed sex ratio, then keep them. For example, in the case of Ronnie's Fundulopanchax sjoestedti, he kept a few belly-sliders and they mature to become adults, spawning and eating like their normal siblings, although they never become free-swimming. This fish is difficult and I can understand why Ronnie went out to save all the fry that hatched successfully at all cost.

[SirBest]

@Shi Xuan: Many thanks for your clarifications. All my queries have been accounted for. One question, what is the setup of your breeding tank? Size of the tank, substrate used, types of filtration, etc.

[Shi Xuan]

The size of the tanks used for spawning/keeping killies are between 12-28L. I don't have a lot of space at home and all of my tanks are on a metal shelving (previously used as my book shelf) which I got from Ikea. I raised a couple of large killie species in these tanks and I don't find any problem with their growth. For example, I used to keep a school of Austrofundulus leohoignei in a 28L tank and the males reached their maximum length of 6-8cm and even the females are large, despite the constant squabbling. I think the key is to feed them well (tubifex, grindals, earthworms) and regular water changes.

[SirBest]

The size of the tanks used for spawning/keeping killies are between 12-28L. I don't have a lot of space at home and all of my tanks are on a metal shelving (previously used as my book shelf) which I got from Ikea. I raised a couple of large killie species in these tanks and I don't find any problem with their growth. For example, I used to keep a school of Austrofundulus leohoignei in a 28L tank and the males reached their maximum length of 6-8cm and even the females are large, despite the constant squabbling. I think the key is to feed them well (tubifex, grindals, earthworms) and regular water changes.

Can I assume that you are not using any substrate for any of your tanks, since it was not mentioned at all by you. You also did mention about feeding the fishes earthworm, sounds interesting. Do you cultivate them or just hunt them down by making holes in your neighbourhood grass patch?

[Shi Xuan]

I never use any substrate. The tanks are simple, a box filter and a container of peat moss. The only plant I use is Java fern. I didn't culture any earthworms. These are dug out from my grandmother's garden.

[SirBest]

Next time I need earthworms, I do know who I can depend on. Anyway, I have been reading or in more direct sense browsing through several tropical fish related books and I spotted a common trend in the books I read. A picture of a killifish will surely be featured as one of the fishes on the cover. I was beginning to ponder as to why such a beautiful fish would receive lukewarm response in our local scene. What are the deterring factors? Anyone can enlighten me on this?

[SirBest]

In case there are "followers" to this thread and was wondering as to why killifishes are not simply call killifishes but have those irritating scientific names tagged to them, below is an article by Steffen Hellner, 1990.


Why Are Scientific Names Important?
When killifish fanciers refer to fish by their scientific names this is not an affectation or elitist. The scientific names are so unambiguous that they make accurate communication between fanciers from different countries possible. Vernacular names are not officially defined anywhere; they are often changed and easily misunderstood. Only a few have acquired general currency, such as lyretail, lyretailed Panchax, or Cape Lopez Lyretail for Aphyosemion australe. In 1766, Carl Von Linne introduced the so called binomial nomenclature, and since then every organism-whether plant or animal-has been classified according to this system.*
The first word in the name is capitalized and denotes the genus of the organism. The second word, which is lower case, indicates the species. For example in Aphyosemion gardneri, for the steel blue Aphyosemion, Aphyosemion is the genus and gardneri is the species.
Species can be further divided into subspecies. Aphyosemion gardneri, for instance, exists in several forms. The nominate subspecies, in this case A.gardneri gardneri, is the form that was first described and therefore repeats the species name. Another subspecies is called A.gardneri nigerianum. *These distinctions are of special importance to fanciers who want to breed their fish. Sometimes fish of the same subspecies are caught in several different locations. The difference between these fishes from different geographic areas-differences in colour, for instance-can be striking or barely apparent. To accurately indicate such differences, the name of the location of origin is included in the scientific name. Thus, A.gardneri nigerianum Makurdi gives the genus, species, subspecies, and the place of origin-Makurdi, in Nigeria. In scientific literature, the name of the person who first described the organism and the year of the first description are added too.