Fish Discipline: An Experience Updated 20Mar2004

**Fry_Slayer** · 13th Mar 2004, 13:52

Late from work, i was back in my place and relaxing pouring small amount of food meant for snacks for my fishes when i notice trouble brewing in my tank.

I have a pair of discus (judging from the appearance i guess i have a M n a F). When the female was eating happily near the male, the male will chase her away, charging and ramming her dispite the fact she was the only kin he has in the whole planted tank (3 feet). I tried putting more food but the situation persitted.

Unimpressed

of my fish's ungentlemanly behaviour (GF are hard to come by bloody hell

), i decided to try discipline my fish.
When ever he rammed into the female and behaving "Jerky", i net him and pull him slightly above the water for few seconds and release back afterwards, base on the theory of "associated experience", i hoped to instill the idea of ramming his own mate will result in some unpleasant experience.

After three or four repeatitions, each time after which he behaves the same way, the male sinks quitely into the corner and lie down by his side for all the shock ! Well, the shock is on me this time, not to mention my only air stone machine is down and oxygenated water therapy is not possible (my tank runs on internal filter and lights on plants to provide oxygen). What i did was put my hand in and put the bugger
up right, he seems to get the notion and stayed up right after that.

He recovered from the shock and regain strength after some additional
feedings. Moments later, he is back in to his own self again, ramming the female and "jerking" around. It seems my first fish discipline session ended in failure.

Insights and experience are welcome, any idea how to get them getting along?
Note : fish size 3~4 inch, been together since CNY

**greenie** · 13th Mar 2004, 16:33

Bro, I believe that sort of behaviour happens to some discus. There's a slim chance the male is trying to dominate the female. They both could be females or males too. My confirm pairs do not fight with each other, can see the difference. It's part cichlid nature to be territorial.

Get four discus of about that size, and let the bullying spread around. Eventually there will be some sort of hierarchy and every fish will learn to live with one another.

Sometimes a pair doesn't make a couple. My 2cents.

**Fry_Slayer** · 13th Mar 2004, 16:49

Thanks for the reply Bro, but other than the usual method of judging by
the the back tip of dorsal fin and the two enlongated "fin" on the down
side of the fish, is there any other method of sex determination in discus?

**ckll** · 13th Mar 2004, 20:59

There's another method I know which is using geometry/tangent lines. See this

**greenie** · 13th Mar 2004, 22:50

ckll, that method is not that accurate too. Actually with all the pointers, at best it's guess work. I myself cannot guarantee a fish gender until I get a pair that spawn succesfully. By than no more guess work.

Once I followed the geometry/tangent lines, sharp dorsal ends and aggresive/dominant behaviour to guess the gender of a Blue diamond. Only 4mths later it paired up to lay eggs

.

That's why I suggest get 4 - 6 in a group. Have at least higher chance of a pair later.

**budak** · 13th Mar 2004, 23:26

Cichlids are "programmed" to be territorial towards all but their established mates.

I somehow doubt that Associated Experience works with fish. There neurology is probably quite different from mammals and birds. The fish will only get stressed and go back to its original behaviour after it recovers.

Is your tank large enough and with sufficient cover for both fish?

**loupgarou** · 14th Mar 2004, 01:02

fish cannot be disciplined. *ie: its a wild critter, don't expect it to have the brains to be domesticated..*

its better you sell it off and try another one who is more predisposed to be less violent.

**bleez** · 14th Mar 2004, 02:07

wish u never tried such a nasty thing on something which is juz following its instincts......but now that u know, hope u will never ever do such a thing again....its nothing short of being sick.....

**greenie** · 14th Mar 2004, 11:14

Well from my limited years of observation, I managed to let them feed off my hand and stroke them while cleaning the tank.

I let them earn my trust. Usually they will squabble for food, now those who need more just move to side I'm watching and stare at me. They stop whacking each other becoz they can 'signal' to me for more.

It takes lots of attention on my part. I always watch them feed until they are done. They surely will recognize me now becoz when my wife approach them, they will just swim around and not move to the front.

One suggestion, but might not work ,is place food at both ends of the tank. This will minimize confrontations. But I believe they will sort it out after a while. Remember, when the bullied fish gets hungry enough, it will ignore the aggression of the other guy. But do take care the health of that guy/gal if it's health becomes poor.

**Fry_Slayer** · 20th Mar 2004, 16:21

Updated: Introduced another (assumed) female to the tank as suggested by Greenie what happen was the original bully stop bullying, now the initial victim turn villian and is more aggressive towards the new female than the original bully, who look some what out of place seeing his original tank mate ramming the new girl, now he is watching his girl friend bitching around

....hierarchy theory i guess, lady of the house is not happy with the new competition

. Now the new female often hides behind the submerge filter or sword plants, and the original couple seems to get along fine now due to the "new hierarchy".(lol just reminds you of homosepians, eh?

) If they are not getting along fine any time soon i plan to put another male in, then atleast they are hiding in pair.

[To loupgarou n bleez: the experiment was not base entire on fiction, i read on Reader Digest's: Mind Power compilation that even gold fish remembers not to swim to certain part of a tank given a few minor electric shock, surely Discus can do better?!]

[To greenie: yes, i did try out the feeding on both end theory, what happen was sometime when the couple finish eating their part, they will enter where the new female is hiding, chased her out and get the food. But generally i feed extra so the new girl can salvage wherever she goes, if the killer shrimps did not get it first.]

**budak** · 20th Mar 2004, 22:38

Dear Fry Slayer,

Some folks may think shocking goldfish with electricity in order to train them is an interesting experiment. Why should you follow their train of thought in making your fish suffer for the sake of a human "discipline" totally alien to their inbred nature? Why shouldn't the government then use remote-controlled electric shocks that are activated whenever someone litters, spits or have oral sex?

You can never train a fish to behaviour otherwise from what it will do in nature. In the case of cichlids, territoriality must always be factored in by an aquarists, by giving ALL fish in the tank sufficient space (for discus, something like maximum 2 fish in a 3 ft tank...). In the case where a pair is formed, the 3rd fish will always suffer till it wastes away. If you manage to make it such that 2 pairs are formed, be prepare for each pair to compete with the other constantly.

And what on earth are you talking about when you say it reminds you "homosepians"? Your poor spelling aside, do you have any problems with that?

**Aeon** · 20th Mar 2004, 23:58

Originally Posted by budak

Dear Fry Slayer,

Some folks may think shocking goldfish with electricity in order to train them is an interesting experiment. Why should you follow their train of thought in making your fish suffer for the sake of a human "discipline" totally alien to their inbred nature? Why shouldn't the government then use remote-controlled electric shocks that are activated whenever someone litters, spits or have oral sex?

You can never train a fish to behaviour otherwise from what it will do in nature. In the case of cichlids, territoriality must always be factored in by an aquarists, by giving ALL fish in the tank sufficient space (for discus, something like maximum 2 fish in a 3 ft tank...). In the case where a pair is formed, the 3rd fish will always suffer till it wastes away. If you manage to make it such that 2 pairs are formed, be prepare for each pair to compete with the other constantly.

And what on earth are you talking about when you say it reminds you "homosepians"? Your poor spelling aside, do you have any problems with that?

You are the one that have problems. Why can't it remind him of humans?

**mrs budak** · 21st Mar 2004, 00:51

whoops... actually a faux paux of sorts there.... but i do think that attempts to anthropomorphise animals doesn't help in understanding their natural behaviour and drives. And if one regards animals as reacting and behaving like humans, shouldn't one then treat them as such?

Understanding animals on their terms is probably the best way to know them. One very excellent and readable book on this (and with very entertaining chapters on fish-keeping, cichlids and birds) is King Solomon's Ring by Konrad Lorenz (available at Kinokuniya).

<posted by MR budak>

**bleez** · 21st Mar 2004, 02:04

Originally Posted by Aeon

You are the one that have problems. Why can't it remind him of humans?

To be reminded of humans and executing an action to simulate human behaviour on something non-human are two totally different things......

**Aeon** · 21st Mar 2004, 09:25

The world will one day be destroyed by those who think they are so human and non-animal.

I don't see why humans can be more humane than animals. If animal is this case means barbaric, then the behaviour of many humans tells me the word human is just its synonym.

Afterall, we rely on our animal senses more often than our exclusive 'human' senses.

**budak** · 21st Mar 2004, 11:11

There is a poignant observation in this. Animals (mainly carnivores) kill rarely for "fun", mostly for survival (i.e. food) or to protect their territory/mates/offspring. Man, however, is probably the only creature to kill/enslave for things that are really in his mind (e.g. honour, nation, religion, ideology). Which is more barbaric?

The above-recommended book provides an insight on how similar as well different animals are to humans, and will help all pet-owners understand their creatures better.

**bleez** · 21st Mar 2004, 12:51

Originally Posted by Aeon

The world will one day be destroyed by those who think they are so human and non-animal.

I don't see why humans can be more humane than animals. If animal is this case means barbaric, then the behaviour of many humans tells me the word human is just its synonym.

Afterall, we rely on our animal senses more often than our exclusive 'human' senses.

No offence but I think your view is a gross injustice on mother nature. The way a fish is forced to adopt human practices is in itself against nature. The fish behaves in a certain way because it is meant to be that way. Analagous to the fact that you don't train a carnivore to be a herbivore. Yes, we do rely on animal instincts at times but that doesn't mean all animals share the same instincts because nature has its own purpose in its own way. Humans are more adaptable which makes us superior in that sense but that doesn't mean we should exploit others and force conformity.

**Aeon** · 21st Mar 2004, 13:48

Originally Posted by bleez

Originally Posted by Aeon

The world will one day be destroyed by those who think they are so human and non-animal.

I don't see why humans can be more humane than animals. If animal is this case means barbaric, then the behaviour of many humans tells me the word human is just its synonym.

Afterall, we rely on our animal senses more often than our exclusive 'human' senses.

No offence but I think your view is a gross injustice on mother nature. The way a fish is forced to adopt human practices is in itself against nature. The fish behaves in a certain way because it is meant to be that way. Analagous to the fact that you don't train a carnivore to be a herbivore. Yes, we do rely on animal instincts at times but that doesn't mean all animals share the same instincts because nature has its own purpose in its own way. Humans are more adaptable which makes us superior in that sense but that doesn't mean we should exploit others and force conformity.

Huh? Are you sure you quoting the right post? How is my post injustice to nature? When did I say fish should not behave how it should be? When did I say humans are superior and must force conformity?

How do you know if fish were meant to be in what way? the fish told you?

What I meant was humans should not look at themselves as higher beings that have no animals behaviours. We eat, sleep, drink, mate and reproduce just like other animals. So what Fry_Slayer commented on the fish's behaviour is somehow like humans is not wrong but rather true.

It's just training the fish by inducing environmental factors. Just like training glossostigma to crawl by regular trimming. Are you going to bring me down because I did something unnatural to the glossostigma? Plants are living organisms too.

Fry_slayer just quoted some article on using electric shocks to train Goldfish, but does that mean he's going to do that? or he wants to do that? It's just a piece of info that shows fish react to the environment well and not just a lump of brainless flesh swimming through the water! If you want to discuss the cruelty in that act, go talk with Reader's Digest.

I don't think the fish were 'forced to adopt human practises', it happens in all animals, BGR that is.

**budak** · 21st Mar 2004, 15:22

Yes, animals, like humans, all need to eat, sleep, mate, etc.... but what drives their behaviour may be quite different factors depending on each species.

Again, although Fry Slayer did not use electric shocks to "train" his fish, his catch and discipline method of "training" his discus (for which he cites the theory from that Readers Digest article) is still rather deplorable, and has little basis.

Using glosso as an analogy isn't very suitable, I find. The plant simply reacts naturally to very high light by crawling horizontally on the substrate. It's not "training", just a matter of understanding what factors affect the plant's growth pattern.

It's very hard to generalise and use human behaviourial motivations and traits and apply them to animals. Sometimes it may work, sometimes not. In the case of the discus, it is highly unlikely, and attempts to force the fish to get along with each other through various ways and means are not going to be successful.

**Aeon** · 21st Mar 2004, 15:56

The plant simply reacts naturally to very high light by crawling horizontally on the substrate. It's not "training", just a matter of understanding what factors affect the plant's growth pattern.

~ I got the info from Takashi Amano's books. If you disagree, please contact [email protected] for further arguments. ~

Aeon wanted to say that, but Aeon decided to keep harsh words to Aeonself and say something nice when Aeon thinks of something.