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Thread: new platinum tetras?

  1. #1
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    new platinum tetras?

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    http://www.rva.ne.jp/gallery/htm_car...n_simulans.htm

    never knew green neons came in platinum
    and i must admit they are quite nice ...

    which brings me to a new point ...
    so far ive seen only cardinal, neon and green neon tetras that have platinum coloration/deformity ...

    is it that common to have platinums contamination in tetras?
    does it affect the lifespan of the fish?

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    Baensch vol. 6 shows P. simulans in what they call a "pepper and salt" morph (from Rio Negro), with black speckles over the normal colouration. There is also a var. with a silvery (rather than blue-green) stripe. The so-called platinum cardinal tetras are regarded as a colour mutation with no impact on lifespan or health. The "platinum" green neons should be similar.

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    The "platinum" of the platinum neon you have seen and platinum cardinal are formed differently.

    Anyway, any tetras would have platinum specimens.

    your
    " never knew green neons came in platinum "
    &
    "so far ive seen only cardinal, neon and green neon tetras that have platinum coloration/deformity ... "

    is really confusing.

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    sorry abt the confusing sentence ...
    i din know that green neons had platinum colours until i saw the pic ...
    so i added green neon tetra to my limited knowledge of tetras that had platinum colouration ...

    so now i know ... that apart from cardinals , neons and green neons, all tetras can have platinum colouration ...

    but this only extends to tetras? how about rasboras/ characins?

    or even platinum arowanas?!

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    Some very vague feeling (the kind that comes just before a hangover) tells me that tetras are somehow very very connected with characins....

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    heh ... i do know tetras are from the characin family ...
    im sure tetras are not the only members of the characin family ...

    thats what im asking ... whether other members of the characin family will get this platinum syndrome APART from tetras?

    do i really need to be so clear to avoid sarcasm? :P
    somehow i feel like im william hung here and budak is simon cowell ...


    ANYWAY ... this platinum syndrome really intrigues me ... anyone knows whether it solely affects TETRAS only, or characins only, or all kinds of fishes??

    kindly enlighten the blur sotong here ...

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    MrTree, kindly enlighten all of us what you learned from the Japanese magazines.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona crumenatum Galleria Botanica

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    Re:

    Glad you clarified it, anzai. And I am hoping to hear Mr Tree's input on it as well. One source (can't remember where) I read suggested that this colouration is the result of a benign virus. As to its survival value, it's still unclear to me how this conspicious colouration could become a permanent trait in the wild though.

    You must forgive me if i sounded irritated. Must have been a carryover from feelings after reading another long thread about celebes tetras, black harlequins and "wild" platinum tetras, and in which people also seem to want to announce to the whole appreciative world their messages to other individual forummers.

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    no hard feelings man ...
    as what u said this platinum syndrome is a virus ... and not a genetic error as i suspected ...
    then theres always this chance that the virus dies off after some time ...
    which kind of reminds me of dyed fish ...

    could this platinum syndrome be induced by artificial means then? since theoretically it is actually a biological parasite, maybe it can be extracted and injected into other fish?

    another question if u guys dont mind ...
    any particular reason that the fish (platinum neon in this case) has different patches of silver on different parts of the body?

    because contrary to another forummer's (i think mrtree's) post in the other "long" thread, the platinum neons that i have bought home actually exhibited different patches of shine at several areas in different areas ...

    PS : my 2cts ... frankly to me i feel that the price of the "wild" platinum neon is astronomical not due to the fact that it is wild, but more because its new and fancy and good-looking ...

    well at least i bought it because it looked good ... :P (beauty is skin deep)

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    Anzai, I understand from MrTree that the fishes exhibits the "shine" in patches. I'm not going to reread that thread but I don't think he said it should be evenly distributed.

    Budak, you must have read that virus reference from German source? Because MrTree read his from some Japanese source (but it was said to be a bacteria). All the good stuff are written in a foreign language as if English is my native tongue, hah!

    Do you have any reference about how the "black" harlequins are produced?
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona crumenatum Galleria Botanica

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    Re:

    i have seen individual fish displaying "platinum" colouration at Gan's, indicating that this trait occurs fairly periodically in wild populations. I suspect, if the cause is confirmed to be microbiological, it could be akin to the viruses that cause variegation in plants, and depending on its survival value, may or may not be passed on to subsequent generations. The unevenness of the "platinum" patches in wild fish may be indicative of its pathogenic (albeit benign) nature, but could also be because the trait is not "fixed".

    i have no information on black harlequins (which I find really unappealing). I suppose some wise guy found melanistic specimens in some wild batches and took the trouble to "fix" the strain.

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    Re:

    [quote:87bc100bad="budak"]i have seen individual fish displaying "platinum" colouration at Gan's, indicating that this trait occurs fairly periodically in wild populations. I suspect, if the cause is confirmed to be microbiological, it could be akin to the viruses that cause variegation in plants, and depending on its survival value, may or may not be passed on to subsequent generations. The unevenness of the "platinum" patches in wild fish may be indicative of its pathogenic (albeit benign) nature, but could also be because the trait is not "fixed".[/quote:87bc100bad]

    somewhat like Echinodorus Marble Queen eh? Are you suggesting that the patches would be passed on as genetic variation (unlikely right since it isn't a mutation) or that the offsprings are also carrying the pathogen?

    [quote:87bc100bad="budak"]i have no information on black harlequins (which I find really unappealing). I suppose some wise guy found melanistic specimens in some wild batches and took the trouble to "fix" the strain.[/quote:87bc100bad]

    I heard the black is injected, apparently offsprings from the black parents aren't black.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona crumenatum Galleria Botanica

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    erm ... btw whats pathogenic? residual contaminants?

    i think it might be the latter reason that the trait is not fixed ...

    according to benny's picture of the platinum cardinal ... the platinum patch is evenly coloured on the top most stripe of the platinum cardinal ...
    which brings me to deduce that after many generations in the wild ... such platinum cardinals have bred enough to maintain its colouration so much so that it has become evenly spread out than in patches ...

    unless of course such pieces of fully coloured platinum cardinals are like one in a thousand pieces of normal platinum cardinals, or one in a million normal cardinals ....

    any flaws in my deduction/reasoning?

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    Re:

    Horrid harlequin debasers!!!

    Pathogenic refers to something caused by a viral or bacterial infection. But it doesn't mean that a trait caused by a pathogen cannot be inherited and "fixed." Diseases can be passed from mother to offspring, and there is also the school of thought that cellular mitochondria (in nearly all animals) are actually vestiges of symbiotic bacteria that lend a hand to the metabolic processes of their hosts.

    It's not impossible (whether it's likely or not can probably only be observed in the field, not the lab), but if individuals with the "platinum" trait also prefer each other (rather than their normal-coloured counterparts) as mates, the trait could well be reinforced and a micropopulation with increasingly strong "platinum" colouration emerge.

    As to what competitive advantage such a colouration conveys a species, I would be interested to hear some expert views.... perhaps choy's icthyological friends could comment....?

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    "the" ichthyologist don't seem to frequent AQ I'm afraid. perhaps some other experts lurking in the shadows?

    One possible evolutionary pathway through which a colour morph resulting from a pathogen could become ingrained into a population, and here let me use a human example:

    We all have genes that expresses how much hair we should have. Let's say there is a common pathogen which causes baldness in certain individual with a certain genetic variation. In most other individuals the baldness is not expressed even though the pathogen is present.

    Now, suppose further that bald people prefer to mate with each other. This would produce offsprings with a higher proportion with the genetic trait that will cause baldness in the presence of the pathogen (or even when the pathogen is not present). In effect the baldness trait is sexually selected for, even though it was originally pathogenic in nature.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona crumenatum Galleria Botanica

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    This "Platinum" not only happen to characins. It's all because of bacteria.
    Because of the bacteria, the fish's body would grow membrane to cover the bacteria. On the surface of the membrane, a shinny pigment called guanine would form, which makes the fish shinny.

    why the bacterias find the tetra as host, and its purpose, or whether it's harmfull to fish is still unknown. But in many cases, the wild "platinum" would gone eventually due to the death of the bacteria.

    the fish's "platinum" would not be even. it's all depends on where the bacteria wants to live upon.

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    so it's a skin disease? is it bacteria, virus or fungal?
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona crumenatum Galleria Botanica

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    But if its only bacteria, then why is it the platinum neon tetras at Kingfisher also looks rounder than the usual neons
    Oh, the rare old Whale, mid storm and gale. In his ocean home will be. A giant in might, where might is right. And King of the boundless sea.

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    Re:

    [quote:6931ec54db="crandf"]But if its only bacteria, then why is it the platinum neon tetras at Kingfisher also looks rounder than the usual neons[/quote:6931ec54db]

    they look quite normal to me, within reasonable variation. just check out some of the harlequin rasbora and you'll how much variation is possible within a species. for that matter, check out Yao Ming!
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona crumenatum Galleria Botanica

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    Yao Ming also has bacteria?
    Oh, the rare old Whale, mid storm and gale. In his ocean home will be. A giant in might, where might is right. And King of the boundless sea.

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