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Thread: Prototype - Green in Sump

  1. #1
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    Prototype - Green in Sump

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    Purposes are to reduce water changed and less filter wool changes...

    Also to create natural water filtration as close to the real world, so as to create trace elements naturally.

    Understand moss ball is a kind of good algae... moderate amount is good for the tank and fishes..



    Week One - Introduction of Moss Balls in sump.
    This is last week poo... Shall do an update every week to see whether there is any improvement...
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    This week poo amount look almost the same... but at least i have added additional NGT and with the increase bioload... the wool did not clog...
    Not sure it is due to the moss ball effect but will check again next week.

    This week has added hornwort and water lily...
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    By the way, i happened to come across a thread in other forum talking about NOT to remove the filter wool in the sump as it contains good bacteria..
    I just cannot understand the rational behind it... wanted to comment in that forum... but i know there will definitely be a fierce debate and i also do not want to put myself as the bad guy to give an impression that i am looking for trouble... (i did a fierce one before... it is just pointless...)
    Anyone care to comment and enlighten me why filter wool should not be removed ? I throw them every week because to me... these are waste and will be just like a nitrate time bomb if not removed..
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Prototype - Green in Sump

    Haha bro, the rationale for not removing or even not washing filter wool is when it doesn't run the risk of becoming clogged and to prevent new tank syndrome. At least, I think that's why haha.

    In a nutshell, there is plenty of beneficial bacteria in the filter wool and as the number of inhabitants increase, the bacteria grows with them. These deal with the wastes given off, converting them to non-toxic form. Washing too much or throwing away too much will result in possibly too low amounts of the beneficial bacteria and a temporary accumulation of the toxic waste. Although temporary, will stress the fish unduly. Repeat this cycle, the tank and it's inhabitants will run into trouble or get sick.

    That said, there are plenty of good reasons to wash or change the filter media, when done correctly and when necessary. For my own tanks depending on their setup, I wash the filter media fortnightly, quarterly or even yearly.

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Bro... that is interesting. BB growing in dirty filter wool.
    If that is the case, there is no need to use biomedia since the wool can do both mechanical and biological.
    Am i missing something here ?
    Or maybe we shall said in this way.
    1. What are the pros and cons by not washing or changing the dirty filter wool.
    2. What are the pros and cons by washing and changing the dirty filter wool.
    Anyone care to contribute ?
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Prototype - Green in Sump

    Bro... Ask questions with an open mind...

    What do bacteria feed on and can they grow on filter wool? What does filter wool filter out of the tank anyway?

    Media is rarely purely just mechanical. Cons of not removing is clogging and when clogged, potential die off of bb with associated ammonia/nitrate spike and I presume this is the bomb you are referring to. It's easier for this clogging to occur for filter wool due to it being very fine. Cons of not changing the filter wool is that repeated washing and the actual use results in it clogging more easily than new filter wool after some time.

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Sure, i am asking with open mind even though my choice is still to remove the filter wool.
    What you have mentioned are the CONS for not removing and washing/reusing the filter wool.
    I would like to know what are the PROS for not removing and not washing the filter wool.... (This is the thing that puzzled me when someone in another forum was telling everyone that)
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Well from what I understand the BB can grow on almost any surface, like the tank walls and substrate etc etc. By removing the filter wool and washing it, you are removing a portion of your BB colony in the tank at once.
    Why do we need biological media when we already have filter wool? The common consensus is simply even more surface area for the BB to colonise. and I believe the reason that the filter wool goes before the biomedia is because the biomeia has a lot more available surface area for colonisation, and clogging it up would be easier than clogging up the filterwool.

    Jusy my 2c.

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    @Jemswira
    That sound logical. So basically we can use 100% filter wool to handle both mechanical and biology needs, but however, in order to prevent clogging, this type of implementation is not recommended.
    So, if we have filter wool and biomedia, can we say that it is safe to clean/removed the filter wool, leaving the biomedia untouched ?
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Indeed, bacteria grows on all surfaces in the tank and by cleaning the filter wool, you are removing a small portion of the bacteria in your tank. The best "natural" filtration method I've seen or inspired of, is the Hamburg Mattenfilter. This concept is relatively old but very practical. Below are some links for your reference;

    http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/
    http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...e-a-HMF-Filter
    http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...n-Filter-(HMF)

    And a smaller version of HMF;
    http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...ttenfilter-HMF
    Currently keeping large predatory fish 🐟

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Thanks to ShiXuan for highlighting the Hamburg Mattenfilter which I am sure many hobbyists live by.

    For those who don't like the tank's front width to be reduced, it is also possible to design it so that the curved filtering mat starts a few inches behind the tank's front. This is done by glueing the two front vertical holding strips a few inches away from the tank's front. This way, the whole frontal area will be available for fish to swim in, thus increasing the overall viewing area.

    For driving the water, I will prefer to use the air-pump method simply because it will be more effective for added oxygenation. but for bigger tanks, maybe a powerful head will be needed. Much depends on the resultant flow rate, which is a very important factor.
    LIFE IS UNBEARABLE WITHOUT A FISH TANK!!!

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Quote Originally Posted by Shi Xuan View Post
    Indeed, bacteria grows on all surfaces in the tank and by cleaning the filter wool, you are removing a small portion of the bacteria in your tank. The best "natural" filtration method I've seen or inspired of, is the Hamburg Mattenfilter. This concept is relatively old but very practical. Below are some links for your reference;

    http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/
    http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...e-a-HMF-Filter
    http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...n-Filter-(HMF)

    And a smaller version of HMF;
    http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php...ttenfilter-HMF
    Thank you. This is very interesting. Different from Diana design but i would like to try.
    Just that thesizing a Mattenfilter is kind of confusing... Maybe i just use a rectangle tank as mentioned in the article so the setup will be easy..
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    Thanks to ShiXuan for highlighting the Hamburg Mattenfilter which I am sure many hobbyists live by.

    For those who don't like the tank's front width to be reduced, it is also possible to design it so that the curved filtering mat starts a few inches behind the tank's front. This is done by glueing the two front vertical holding strips a few inches away from the tank's front. This way, the whole frontal area will be available for fish to swim in, thus increasing the overall viewing area.

    For driving the water, I will prefer to use the air-pump method simply because it will be more effective for added oxygenation. but for bigger tanks, maybe a powerful head will be needed. Much depends on the resultant flow rate, which is a very important factor.
    Bro, as mentioned in the article, a curved Mattenfilter design is not safe and will lead to a crash of the tank.
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Prototype - Green in Sump

    Quote Originally Posted by bravobb View Post
    Bro, as mentioned in the article, a curved Mattenfilter design is not safe and will lead to a crash of the tank.
    Haha bro, the article mentions that a curve that is inwards to the corner itself is not safe and will lead to a crash. However, it does not state that the more usual outward curve will lead to a crash of the tank. It's quite stable actually.

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    For curved designs, the trick lies in the selection of the right density mat filtering media, plus minimizing the bent, and ensuring a large portion of the mat is uncurved.
    LIFE IS UNBEARABLE WITHOUT A FISH TANK!!!

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Quote Originally Posted by Draka View Post
    Haha bro, the article mentions that a curve that is inwards to the corner itself is not safe and will lead to a crash. However, it does not state that the more usual outward curve will lead to a crash of the tank. It's quite stable actually.
    So embarrassed... haha... what is the different between inwards and outward curve ?
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Prototype - Green in Sump

    Eh I'm not too sure myself if this is what the author means, but from what I understand is when the author speaks of an implosion it is due to the pressure difference between the inside (water intake area) and the outside (main tank area/water output area). It is after all this pressure difference that we are relying on to drive the water through the sponge. As he stated, with an older mat the difference in pressure would be higher. This pressure is exerted on the sponge from the outside to the inside.

    If it is an inside curve, the curve facing towards the corner rather than facing away from the corner, this pressure is exerted in the same direction as the curve and would serve to "fold" the curve further, flexing it and stressing it. If not sufficiently secured this would result in the sponge coming off and if left unremedied, crash. However imho if secured as tetrakid said, I doubt it'd be that much of a problem. One point though, that is simply speculation on my part, would be that such flexing of the sponge would dislodge bacteria from the sponge that would be pumped into the tank and it's not something I'd like on a regular basis.

    If conversely it is an outward curve, the curve radiating away from the corner, the curve itself would be in the opposite direction of the pressure exerted by the water and would thus resist it, resulting in a stable fixed position of the sponge. As this filter is purely biological and can serve long periods with minimal to no cleaning, it makes more sense to go for the version that provides more stability.

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    I still do not understand the differences in the curve thing... doesn't matters...
    I just got myself the 50cm sponge... going to convert my HOF pump to use for this HMF design...
    No sand and java moss at the moment.
    Hope to get it setup and take a picture to share with everyone... Anyway... it is just a simple setup... nothing outstanding so do not be too hopeful...
    Truth lasts for Eternality and lies are just waiting to be discovered.

    http://bravobb-aqua.blogspot.sg/

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    Prototype - Green in Sump

    Lol it's simple. Got different curves. One of them not safe. That's all.

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    Re: Prototype - Green in Sump

    Pardon me if I don't answer your question because I want to get straight to the point.

    HMF is basically, a filter which utilizes the water circulation to feed the biological bacteria colonizing on the surface of the filter pad. It is more of a medium, to culture the essential bacteria necessary for the biological cycle to be stable. One key advantage of this filtration is that, the maintenance is really low. The HMF can continue for a long time before the pad becomes clogged and badly in need of a cleaning. I've even read from someone that he hardly clean his HMF for almost a decade! Just for that, I could imagine the endless possibility.

    The drawback of this filtration however, is that, it takes up too much space, especially when tank space is a premium. Some people opt for something less conventional but still practical nonetheless and a curved one serve to preserve that. It doesn't compromise the surface area, only curved to provide more room for the fishes. Others think HMF as unsightly but this can be remedied by having the surface of the HMF planted with some creeping plants, like Java moss. Besides, it looks pretty neat too. Should you have done that, the principle is the same as your "marimo moss ball/Green in Sump" concept, more or less.
    Last edited by Shi Xuan; 27th Dec 2012 at 00:22.
    Currently keeping large predatory fish 🐟

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