What is 'German-grade' Apistogramma?

[yorky]

Hello folks,
I've been quite confused by postings that states 'German-grade Apistos'.
What does it mean?
Are there certain standards that is associated with that terminology?

Ok ok.. I am not a purist here and I am more than familiar with the 'Beauty and value lies in the eyes of the beholder'.
Personally, I feel that this term 'German-grade/bred' has been mis-used to bring a certain 'high' quality perception.
Is this true?

From a confused 'German-grade' newbie..

[leeruisheng]

Hope I've got my facts right. I think it's associated with the likes of species like Apistogramma elizabethae from Wilhelmi, A. diplotaenia from Wilhelmi who hales from Germany. And hobbyist would deem as long as it's a German shipment, it's good quality.

[doppelbanddwarf]

Maybe German-grade would refer to German-bred Apistogrammas. And the quality of German-bred Apistogrammas tends to, but not definitely always, be better than lets say mass-bred Apistogrammas. However it is also possible that these so called "German-bred" apistos are bred in other Eastern European countries like Czech Republic etc.
Most probably hobbyists would like to know the source of their apisto, like where they were bred etc.
From a noob apisto-hobbyist.

[DanGoh59]

Generally for Apisto hobbyists, "German" Apistos refer to those Apistos that are from German breeders as opposed to those from, eg. wild-gathered. The German are generally known to be able to breed Apistos of exceptional colour and finnage in comparison to the normal wild type.
Wilhelm is one of the better known German breeders.
You can go to this website to have a look at the Apistos.
They are some good examples of Apistos where it is clearly labelled
those that are "normal" and those that are from Wilhelm, the German
breeder. Look out for Trifasciata, Viejita and the Hongsloi.
http://www.apistoworldhk.com/

This should give you a very good idea of the difference between
normal and German (Wilhelm) Apistos.
Of course, there will also be gems available from wild-stocks
and not forgetting, "Beauty is in the eyes of the Beholder".
Some hobbyists prefer the "natural and wild" look.
The German Apistos are also generally many times the price of a normal Apisto.

[wiki]

You will have to determine the value of the fish yourself (i.e. whether if it's worth the price you're paying for) and frankly, alot will have to depend on the LFS whether they're being honest about the source.

[mobile2007]

Not LV bags/goods are good design or suitable for ourself. But, the vast majority associated the brand with elegant, expensive, high class...blah blah blah.

[yaya]

Regardless whether it is german-bred apisto, if the apisto quality doesn't look good, who will buy it. And obviously the german-bred apisto is far more pricely than the normal farm-bred apisto since the fact stated that "the German are generally known to be able to breed Apistos of exceptional colour and finnage in comparison to the normal wild type" mentioned by DanGoh59.

Question: Can i say that a german-bred apisto is generally better in adapting to a new water parameter condition and its lifespan is longer than the normal apisto since the german-bred should be healthier and lively than the normal apisto? or it is unpredictable?

[DanGoh59]

Commenting on Bro Yaya's remark on the adaptability and the longetivity of the German-bred vs Farm-bred Apistos, personally I don't see it as a
major factor to decide on whether to go for it. That is to say that there is no reported marked difference between Apistos from these sources on these two traits. At the end of the day, their well-being and life span will be based on the usual tank requirements for Apistos. And none of these
2 sources have an advantage or disadvantage in terms of these 2 traits
over one another.

To me, the deciding factor whether a hobbyist goes for German-bred or
not depends on the colour/finnage (your personal appreciation) and the cost (got $ or not). Personally, I do give credit to the Germans for being
able to produce such Apistos. The difference in terms of the colour and finnage is very, very clear. But from a cost factor, I choose to admire it
through pics

Regardless whether it is german-bred apisto, if the apisto quality doesn't look good, who will buy it. And obviously the german-bred apisto is far more pricely than the normal farm-bred apisto since the fact stated that "the German are generally known to be able to breed Apistos of exceptional colour and finnage in comparison to the normal wild type" mentioned by DanGoh59.

Question: Can i say that a german-bred apisto is generally better in adapting to a new water parameter condition and its lifespan is longer than the normal apisto since the german-bred should be healthier and lively than the normal apisto? or it is unpredictable?

[yaya]

In this case, it doesn't need to look into german-bred apisto or not unless you are really into the rare quality of the apistogramma's colour,finnage etc which german-bred will provide.

[mictok]

2 deciding Factors for me to get German Grade or not:

1.Budget--Basically they are about twice or more in pricing as compare to the other grade.Usually I will have heart-pain but the nice finnage and colouration will heal it as the times goes by.

2.Finnage and Colouration--German Grade will display great finnage and colouration even at juvenile stage.To be fair some of the recent ones I saw at the LFS actually display nice finnage and colouration also at a low pricing as compared.Look like the standard of Apistogramma is raising.

[genes]

I agree with yorky. Not all germans produce apistos with great colours or forms.

Correct me if i am wrong, but the only german that i know of that produce apistos with unnatural, brightly coloured, most of the time reddish, is Wilhelm. Read from the net that a wild caught Ap. elizabethae that was sent into his care came out with the red face and belly. A signature of his Ap. elizabethaes. A tightly guarded secret as to how he does it. If not, his fishes would not have cost $500 a pair if everyone knows how he does it.

The quality of the "german grades" that reaches our shore is far from Wilhelm's quality. But how can you compare paying $180 for a pair of german grade elizabethae and expect the quality of a $500 pair?
See here for Wilhelm's Ap. elizabethae.
http://www.rva.ne.jp/apisto/ap_erizabe_g.htm

I was lucky enough to see his Ap. diplotaenia, Ap. elizabethae and Ap. viejita while i was in HK some years back. So, only true "german grade" apistos to me will be Wilhelm's. My personal benchmark perhaps?

[Wackytpt]

I share the same view as Gene.

My personal benchmark of a Germay-grade Apistogramma is the fishes that are breed by Mr Wilhelm and not any other apistogramma that comes from German.

The phrase "German-grade" Apistogramma is been greatly mis-used.

My 5 cents worth.

[illumnae]

I wouldn't say that the term "German grade" Apistogramma has been greatly misused. After all, to a large extent, I think we can safely say that there is a noticeable difference between the "German grade" Apistos we see around and the "Farm bred" ones that are commonly found. Perhaps to some the larger price tag doesn't justify it, but the difference in quality cannot be denied. Perhaps once in a long while, we see a "Farm bred" one that defies tradition and rivals the quality of the "German grade" ones, but these are few and far between.

Then of course, a step up from "German grade" we have the fish bred by the reknowned apisto breeder Wilhelm. There is absolutely no doubt to the mind for anyone who's even seen pictures of Wilhelm's fish that his apistos are by far the top grade. So perhaps to reserve the term "German grade" for Wilhelm's apistos is not only a misnomer, but does great injustice to Mr Wilhelm himself. I would propose a term one step up from that and say that Wilhelm's apistos are in a class of their own and should simply be known as "Wilhelm grade".

That would probably be a better "classification system" in terms of quality. (1) "Wilhelm", (2) "German", (3) "Farm bred" or "Others"

Of course, we do know that other countries such as Czech Republic, Japan and Taiwan or even Singapore might produce some good grade apistos that can rival the "German grades", but I guess since the Germans were the pioneers in the quality fish breeding, the name sticks.

Just my humble 2 cents

[genes]

I like the idea of "Wilhelm grade". With that, hobbyist can be sure of what is to be expected of their purchase.

[Wackytpt]

Wilhelm's fishes are have very stunning colours which I doubt few can match his quality.

His fishes are a beauty to keep.

I personally have seen some of the fishes from his farm.

Cheers

[yorky]

Yes, I like the idea of Wilhelm's grade too.
As far as I know, Wilhelm is the only quality commercial Apistogramma breeder out there in Germany.
Other than that, I feel that the local ones are catching up pretty fast.
Look at the recent batches of A. agasizzi 'Tefe' and some of the A. Vijieta.
I thought they look just as good as the so-called 'German grade' ones.
Oh by the way, I don't think 'German grade' means its from Germany.
So hobbyists please take note.
Personally, I would go with Wilhelm-grade and farm-bred.

Side note, Wilhelm doesn't produce a lot these days.
And he doesn't breed all types of species so the comparison has to be limited to his works only too.

[yorky]

Generally for Apisto hobbyists, "German" Apistos refer to those Apistos that are from German breeders as opposed to those from, eg. wild-gathered. The German are generally known to be able to breed Apistos of exceptional colour and finnage in comparison to the normal wild type.
....................

Hi,
I am not sure if you have looked enough at wild caught apistos to make the above comment. Trust me, you'd be surprised at what you can find..

There are 2 good reasons to buy good quality bred apistos.
1. They typically do not come with sickness associated with wild caught fishes. (big plus point)
2. Their quality is a lot more predictable.

[lyh]

Sorry a newbie question here. No doubt Wilhelm has produced very stunning fishes but are the apistos supposed to look like this in the wild? If not then wouldn't the extra red colouration make them look strange rather than nice?

[ccs]

Actually i have a query. As mentioned by genes in an earlier post that a wild elizabethae under Wilhelm's care can turn bright red. Wouldn't it be more of diet and maybe water condition that result in the Wilhelm grade apisto. Anyway just a thought.

[illumnae]

Yes, I like the idea of Wilhelm's grade too.
As far as I know, Wilhelm is the only quality commercial Apistogramma breeder out there in Germany.
Other than that, I feel that the local ones are catching up pretty fast.
Look at the recent batches of A. agasizzi 'Tefe' and some of the A. Vijieta.
I thought they look just as good as the so-called 'German grade' ones.
Oh by the way, I don't think 'German grade' means its from Germany.
So hobbyists please take note.
Personally, I would go with Wilhelm-grade and farm-bred.

Side note, Wilhelm doesn't produce a lot these days.
And he doesn't breed all types of species so the comparison has to be limited to his works only too.

i agree that some "farm bred" might be comparable to the "German grade" standard, but to achieve a more homogeneous increase in quality of the "farm bred" would stlil take some time i feel. if you look at the "German grade" brought in by biotope, they're more or less 100% of a certain quality...then you compare to the farm bred we commonly see around, what's the percentage that can compare to the "German grades"? Based on what I see around, i can safely say under 20%. if you know how to choose and are willing to wait for a good one to appear, sure go for farm bred. but for now, i honestly feel the "German grade" tag does command a higher price tag and rightfully so due to the homogeneous minimum standard that we see